When did you first start seeing podcasts appearing emerging because you're in the business of the spoken word. So I imagine you would have come across it before most of us.
Maybe the first massive podcast that triggered my antennae, if you like, was Serial. It had an episode that was the first ever million download episode. And when I saw that there was a podcast that had generated a million for an episode, I thought, right, okay, now's the time to start paying attention. And I thought, this is going to be another way for businesses to use as a channel of communication. Mhm. I went out and started networking and said, look, this is this is what I do. I will tell your story to the public and I'll make you more accessible. I can make you an authority figure in your industry. I can whatever it is that you want to achieve with a podcast for your business. More revenue, more leads, whatever. we can do it. And nobody was taking me on because they didn't understand what a podcast is.
Yeah. Okay. Welcome back to Digital Marketing From The Coalface. And normally when I'm doing these podcasts, I'm doing them with Alex and Julie, and they're kind of quite nervous because I like to, I like to kind of take the Mickey out of them and I'm Mr. Confident, but this week I'm a bit nervous because I'm with a broadcasting legend and he's looking daggers at me now. Um, so anybody listening, uh, this week on the show, we've got John Mellis and we're going to be talking about why have a podcast. We'll probably wander around and talk about different things as well. But, uh, rather than me blather on. John, can I give you a bit of an intro onto your illustrious career in front of a microphone?
Um, okay. Well, I, uh, going back, God, hundreds of years in real terms. I've been in radio for about thirty two years, thirty two, thirty three somewhere around there. And when I was in school, the only thing that I ever enjoyed in terms of subjects really was English. So I had half a mind that I might want to have a go at journalism when I left, um, and I'd applied to university to go to Napier to study journalism being accepted. I thought, right, the best thing I can do is get some experience before I go. So I wrote away to local newspapers. Local radio stations got taken in by a radio station called Moray Firth Radio. And I went, uh, to do a week's work experience in the news team there. And on day three, um, there was a murder in the Highlands. And I mean, murders don't happen that often. Well, anywhere really, I guess. But certainly in the Highlands, it's it's it's a thing, you know, it's just almost unheard of. Um and I, I got what they call blooded. I was fifteen and a half, sixteen years old. Wow. And I went with a member of the news team to a little village on the Black Isle, and we went up and down the road and. And people. I mean, before you even spoke to them, if doors open and that's it's quite rare. You know, it's a bit like it's a bit like this part of the old Deeside is similar. I think if something like this happened in Ballater or, or Braemar and you went there, doors would close, you know, windows, curtains drawn, people wouldn't wouldn't really, um, be particularly enamored with the idea of speaking to you. But when they did open, if that happened, people were crying before you didn't even ask them a question. And I came away from that experience because you're asking them, you know, did you know so and so, uh, what was your relationship with them? How does it feel for this community right now? And, you know, well, how do you think it feels? But you had to ask these questions. And I came away from that experience and I thought, I don't think I can do this. I, you know, I'm not I'm not cut out for this. This is not me. Yeah. Um, so I reassessed it. Uh, I still liked the idea of media. I went and started a sort of broad media course at college. From that decided that radio was the thing. I just, I just loved the idea of painting pictures, um, and, and storytelling. So I went and I did a radio course back then in Scotland, there were two, there was, there was one in Glenrothes and one in Dundee. Okay. Um, and I went to Glenrothes off the back of that. I was back at Moray Firth. They had uh, to complete the course, you had to do a period of work experience, uh, at your local station because they couldn't afford to put you up anywhere else. So they said, go home. So I went to BBC Radio Highland for three weeks where, um, the, the kit was great, but the people were a little bit standoffish. And then I went to Moray Firth, which was almost the exact opposite. We were working with biscuit tins and goodness knows what. And but the people were amazing and sort of. Two and a half weeks into the three I phoned my tutor at college and he said, how are you getting on? I said, oh, okay. I think I've done a bit of everything. It's been a really good experience. I've got, you know, a lot of experience in the bag. Um, I said, when do you want me back? He said, well, have they said anything about leaving? I said, no, he said, we'll send you a certificate out in the post. And, and um I stayed there. I, that was it. I stayed there, I was unemployed in various capacities for about three years. Mhm. Um, and, you know, I got put on to sort of training scheme, um, and effectively what would have been, I don't know, the dole, I guess, um, in terms of cash. Yeah. But in terms of the training and in terms of what you learned, I got a broad understanding of everything in radio. Um, it was only towards the end of the sort of three years that I thought, well, I'm not going to get a job here. This is Dead Man's shoes. And I started applying elsewhere, and I have I swore that at some point I would put all these rejection letters into like a scrap book or something. I have a podcast, a podcast. Yeah. That's a great idea for a podcast. Um, because they vary in their nature in terms of, yeah, we thought it was quite good or, you know, um, you know, that you completely missed the point or whatever. What you have to bear in mind is when you're sending these demos out on spec jobs don't exist. Mhm. Um, so to get even a foot in the door, uh, it is difficult. Yeah. Um, and eventually I applied for a job in Aberdeen. There was one came up and it was when stations were sort of splitting into two. So, uh, you'd have a regular radio station and they were told to put a service on FM and a service on AM. And invariably what happened was the sort of pop service went onto FM and the golden oldies went onto AM. Um, and I got a job doing nights on Northsound Northsound one, as was in nineteen ninety five. Um, and I stayed there for twenty one years. The idea initially had been to go go there, maybe stay there for twelve months and just keep going south until you get to radio one. And it just didn't happen. No, I fell in love with the area and I fell in love with the girl. And that was pretty much it.
Yeah. And the the whole, um, being at Northsound was a great experience. You didn't stay there for twenty one years because there was nothing else around you. It just worked. I guess you just gelled. And it was.
Yeah, I, I, I, I moved here, I, I settled here, um, like I say, I met a girl here and, and, you know, how often does that mean there's an end to a story pretty quickly in terms of moving around. Um, yeah, we, I love this part of the world. I mean, it's home. Um, and yeah, you know, the doing what I do for a living. It's not the worst job in the world. You know, I, I was really lucky. Um, and I can't stress that enough in that. And I remember having this conversation with my wife when we were in, when I was in my forties, and I just assumed that what you did is a childlike naivety. This I just assumed that what you did was you went to school, figured out roughly what you were good at, figured out roughly what you wanted to do, maybe went to further education in order to learn the skills for that, and then landed a job. And you just did that for the rest of your life. And it, like I say, a childlike naivety, I found what I love. Yeah. Straight off the bat. Yeah. And, and I'm, and I'm passionate about it. And she sort of looked at me as though I was nuts and said, do you honestly think that I have a passion for accounts? I don't know if anyone's got a passion for accounts. Some people are very good at it, but whether they're passionate about it, I don't know. But, um, you know, I, I love what I do. Yeah. Um, and that I think that helps. It is true. I mean, you know, find something you love to do every day. Repeat. Yeah.
Yeah, I, I get what you're saying. I mean, it took me, I was probably into my early thirties before I started working in this field in the whole digital field. And it wasn't digital marketing initially. Um, previous to that, heavy engineering served me time in a shipyard. And yeah, I mean, I, I was kind of, I left the shipyard shortly after finishing my apprenticeship apprenticeship. And I remember one of the guys looking at me saying, what are you doing? You've got a job for life here. And I thought, yeah, that's why I'm leaving. And I didn't really enjoy it. I did work in the oil industry for a while, but you're right, I think I, you know, slightly off topic, but finding something you love and suddenly you're not really working, you know, really. I mean, people now, I mean, you know, I know people who are coming up to retirement, they're looking forward to retirement. And I'm thinking like when we did the podcast with Bob, Bob said, Bob Keiller. He said, uh, he said, I'm he said, we're talking about getting better at golf. He said, probably when I start winding down a bit. And he said, that's always like now plus ten years.
Mhm.
Doesn't matter when. Now. It's always another ten years. And I kind of get where he's coming from with that. And I feel a little bit the same.
Well, this will probably be the first time that Bob Keeler and Dick Van Dyke have been mentioned in the same sentence, but, um, you know, Dick Van Dyke has never officially retired. And just, what a couple of years back was in the, the, um, remake of Mary Poppins in a, in a cameo appearance. Yeah. And he says he never will retire. He might do less and less and less, but he'll never say, right. That's it. Because the moment he does, he thinks he'll probably push off this mortal coil. And I think there's something in that eye at this moment. And I'm just about to turn fifty. I don't have plans to retire. I quite like to do, you know, maybe a podcast a week and a little radio show in the weekend or something. And not for money, but for, but back for love. Um, and, but I don't have any plans to retire. I know the idea of doing little or doing nothing and not creating something is, is alien to me.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm a few years older than you, and I feel exactly the same. In fact, I'm a few years older than you, and I'm still a front line firefighter. I mean, I just, I just love doing everything I'm doing. And, you know, some people are looking at me saying, well, you're still doing that at that age. And I just think, well, yeah, I'm enjoying it. What the.
Hell? Why not?
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So we were going to talk, um, about podcasts and, and various aspects of it and try and talk about why businesses should maybe do it. But there's a few things to cover first. So when were you, when did you first start sort of seeing podcasts appearing, emerging because you're in the business of the spoken word. So I imagine you'd have come across it before. Most of us maybe.
Um, I think probably the, the first massive podcast that triggered my antennae, if you like, was serial. Uh, and it was the, the thing about it that the sort of fact associated with it was it had an episode that was the first ever million download episode. And that's something that, you know, if you've got a million, a million hits on anything, that's pretty remarkable. And this was the first ever million download episode. And if you look up the facts now, I mean, season, I think they've only done two seasons of it. It's a true crime, um, podcast. And it was so huge in the end, the momentum of it, of that vehicle of going back and looking at a cold case spawned films and TV versions and countless other podcasts of a similar nature. It actually created a genre of its own. Yeah. And, um, I think that was the first thing that, that I took note of. It's something like eighty six million downloads for season one and sixty something for season two now. And there's, I mean, there aren't that many episodes in each season. I mean, it's just a crazy phenomenal amount. Yeah. Um, it is very labor intensive as a podcast. There must be a cast of thousands on the right and at least behind the scenes. And it's it's done. It's done very well. Um, and when I saw that there was a podcast that had generated a million for an episode, I thought, right, okay, now's the time to start paying attention because at that point it was about twenty fifteen, say twenty sixteen. Okay. Um, no, twenty fifteen at least. And we were looking at podcasts and maybe you might listen to something like a sports podcast from radio five or there weren't that many around. Even, even mainline broadcasters in the UK were just getting on board with it. And I thought, well, this is this is going to be another way, ultimately for businesses to use as a channel of communication. So at that point, I was still working at Northside and I went out and started networking saying, look, this is this is what I do. I will, I will tell your story to the public and I'll make you more accessible. I can make you an authority figure in your industry. I can whatever it is that you want to achieve with the podcast for your business. More revenue, more leads, whatever. We can do it. Let's sit down and talk about it. And nobody was taking me on because I didn't understand what a podcast is. To this day, um, there are still people who don't know what podcasts are. And the one, the one sort of soundbite that I make stick, um, and, and resonates with folk is a podcast or the podcast universe is like Netflix for real quality radio. So they are decent programs that you can download and consume in your own time. Uh, as many as you want, as often as you want. Um, and that's, that's how podcasts work. Um, and when you say that, then they start to get an idea for how they're consumed at least, but not what to put in them. Yeah. Um, and I think that the breakthrough, I went to Glasgow not long after that. Um, and I worked in radio down there for, for a while, and I just sort of left it in the back burner of the podcasting thing because I figured I really need, we went in and inherited a radio show that was six in the marketplace. Um, when I left, we'd taken it to second, but in that interim, people were kind of caught up with podcasts. Most folk had listened to at least a podcast in the last week. So they were getting the idea of what they were and how they worked. Um, and I came back up to this part of the world and I started fooling around these contacts again to see if they were, you know, at least more iffy with podcasts. And it was just as, as Covid was about to take hold and I got to the first guy and I said, uh, hi, Phil, how are you still doing podcasts? And I said, yeah, yeah, I am great. I want to do one. And that was the first. And throughout Covid, I think a lot of people got twitchy. Um, in terms of how do I communicate with my audience? What do I do? Because they couldn't. You couldn't get collaborations. You had to work really smartly. You'll know this from from from doing the work that you do. You have to work really smartly and remotely. Um, and a lot of the world has changed as a result of that. Podcasting, comparatively speaking, was pretty easy because, you know, unlike we are today, we're in the same place, but a lot of it was done on Zoom or. Yeah.
Yeah, we do a lot of ours. We use a thing called Zencaster. So we did one with a guy last week and he was over in Manhattan. And it's fine. I prefer this. I actually prefer across the table like we are. But yeah, the technology is great for doing it remotely. Absolutely.
And, uh, so, I mean, there are still a lot of my clients today who I've never met in person. Mhm. And, um, that, that first podcast was the sort of catalyst for the ones that came, came afterwards. Um, so that podcast was a finance one. Yeah. With a guy called Phil Anderson. Um, and he's now on episode we've just recorded or we're about to record episode eighty two. So he's doing them weekly. Yeah. And, um, Phil is very, very good at his own self-publicity. So he just, he just gets it. He gets why he's doing it. Yeah. He gets what he's doing. Um, and he gets how to use the promotional kit that we give him for each episode. So, um, he knows where to, to use those in social media and how to use them, how to deploy them. Mhm. Um, and as a result, now he gets around five thousand hits a month and he's on, um, he's on Apple's home page for, uh, personal finance. You know, he's in that, that shop window when you get the, all the podcasts that pop up. Um, and at his best, he's sort of outsold, if you like, or out downloaded, um, the money saving expert, Martin Lewis. Okay. Uh, and Barclays. Yeah. Which for a little financial adviser guy in, in Elon in the north of Scotland. It's not bad.
That's pretty good.
Yeah.
And, and is that because of the style that you've adopted? I guess he's made it accessible. Simple language.
Yes. It's it's, it's it's about a variety of things, I think. So I mean, podcasting is not for everybody. One of the first questions I ask a, a business person when they come to me and say, oh, I think I want to start a podcast because podcasts are sort of one of the hot things right now. People think they should do them without actually knowing why. Sure. Um, so you come to me and say, I want to do a podcast. I say, great. What are your first five episodes? Mhm. And they'll go, uh, right. Well, we definitely want to do one on. And then maybe if you can't come up with five episodes, what's it going to be like when you reach number six?
That's right.
Yeah. Um, and there's a statistic out there, I can't remember what it is, but nearly all podcasts that start today won't go past episode fourteen or fifteen. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so if you get past there, then, you know, you've eliminated a lot of competition. Sure. Um, so if you go back to the drawing board and say, right, well, what are my first five podcasts going to be? This is where you reverse engineer it and you say, well, what, what is your most asked question? What's the thing that people come to you for or search you out for? And I mean, with Phil and the finance one, it was, how much money can I get from my mortgage? Yeah. It's always, it's always how much can I get? Mhm. So that, you know, that was episode number one or episode number two. I think probably the one that preempted that in the end was what can I do if I'm made redundant? Because if you remember, at the beginning of Covid, everyone was being furloughed. Everyone was thinking, I'm not coming back from this. I'm going to get made redundant off the back. So what can I do? How does it affect my pension? What am I entitled to? All of that with the idea being that people were searching for these answers anyway. So then the podcast notes come up and then the podcast download is available and so on and so forth. So it's, it's a matter of doing that. Finance sounds as well, like it's going to be a really dry subject. And it can be. Yeah. Um, Phil has a unique every, every man. Um, if you don't mind me saying that I don't think he has a unique sort of everyman, uh, appeal about him. He manages to take something and make it simple, which is great because he's talking to me in the course of this podcast. That's how the majority of the podcasts that I do, uh, with my clients are set up. I'm the audience, if you like. I'm asking the questions that someone's sitting across from a financial advisor would ask. And I'm also the guy who's asking the questions that you forget to ask when you're sat in front of a financial advisor because they're using terms and you're thinking, oh, what does that mean? So then I'll also be the guy that follows up and says, so what does that mean?
What does that mean?
Yeah. Um, and, and that's, that's roughly how it works. We cover a subject each week. Um, we can always go back and look at others, a same subject from a different angle. So for instance, within mortgages there's equity release mortgages. There's first time startup mortgages, all sorts. Um, you know, and, and it just goes on and on and on. And, and even last week, he came up with one, which was financial planning for students, which we'd never even touched before eighty episodes in. So he's going pretty well and he understands it.
Yeah. I mean, certainly, certainly from the results he's getting. And do you think I mean, what's that one called? So if anyone wants to check.
That one is um that actually goes against one of one of my ground rules. I'll tell you what it is in a minute, but it's called the UK Personal Finance Show with Phil Anderson. Now it does exactly what it says on the tin. My ground rule tends to be go for the three words, you know, go don't don't make it difficult. Make it easy to remember. Um, yeah. You know, I, some of mine the one percent club two dad dads, you know, it's shortened to the point. Yeah.
And does that, does that podcast does does it generate revenue for him. Do you think is it is it something does he attribute business to. I heard you, I heard your podcast. I'm now ringing you up. Yes, Yes.
Okay. It doesn't. When you said generate revenue there for a second, I thought you were wondering about advertising. No no no no. Not in the traditional sense. No, I, I he gets an awful lot of work out of it. He, uh, generates an awful lot of leads. Um, and, and, you know, one of the things that we do, uh, within a podcast, I mean, the thing is if you ever start a podcast and you think, right, I want to do a podcast about finance, right? I wonder how many podcasts there are about finance. And you find that there are, you know, thirty thousand. You think, oh no, what will I do? A podcast about finance. Well, everyone's talking about the same thing. The ones that are getting some traction are the ones that are then within that framework, have something that makes them unique, something that makes them memorable and shareable. Yeah. So we try and build that into all our podcasts. Doesn't matter what it is. Phil. It could be really simple. Phil's one is that Phil loves inspirational quotes. So at the end of every every episode, there'll be a quote related to that episode. And he loves helping people. So we always do a sort of problem page element, you know, and it'll just be questions from that week. Okay. Right now, you know, what do I do about the energy crisis, that kind of thing? Yeah. And that's something he can hang his hat on. So people remember that and they share it.
So you're obviously enthusiastic about podcasts. You have been in the, um, audio business, if you like, for a long time, you know, way before podcasts came along. What is it about this medium? Is it, is it, is it a kind of through necessity? Because that's the mediums gone that way. And there's real there's opportunities. Or is there something about it that that you particularly like.
About podcasting as opposed to radio?
Yeah, I mean, I, I love radio and quite a lot of people who are, I was mentioning earlier, I listened to Ian Dale's podcast for the Money Pod, which he does with, with Jacqui Smith, which is often a hoot. Um, but Ian's, he's on LBC every night. Well, no, not Fridays. Monday to Thursday. Yeah. Yeah. Monday to Thursday. Anyway. So he's very much a live broadcast guy, but he has totally embraced the whole podcast.
He's talking about seven a week I think.
Something.
Yeah. He's got books. He's got. Yeah. All sorts on the go. Yeah. I think, um, there's two things about, about radio and podcasting. Radio. Uh, you're always trying to put as many bums on seats as possible. In fact, that's, that's not necessarily true these days. What you're trying to do is prevent people that are in the seats from getting up and moving away. Yeah. Um, rather than going out and trying to pull them in, you're just trying to stop them from leaving or keep them there for longer. Um, so it becomes a very generalised way of broadcasting and, you know, you're not trying to do anything that might offend them or make them switch off or anything like that. It can be quite beige. With podcasting, it's entirely different. Um, if, if radio is broadcasting, podcasting is narrowcasting. Chances are your podcast is a is a niche subject. So it could be about fly tying for fly fishing. It could be about anything.
Is this the secret, do you think, to a successful podcast?
Yes, I do. I do think it's well, I mean, it's one of them, I think. So, you know, the not the more niche, the more listeners. That's not it at all. But if you have something as a specialised subject, then the person that is coming to find you, they're already invested in that subject. They're already a fan. Yeah. And you're just going to serve them that, you know, in a huge, you're super serving that audience. So they're more likely to, to be an adoring fan. You know, people don't say, well, they might say, oh, I love that radio station. Mhm. And they do like the music and they like the presenter or whatever, but they don't have the same relationship with the radio station as they do with their podcast. Yeah. Um, and I think that's one of the things, the other thing is in a radio station environment, you're always governed by the hour. Yeah. So and there are things to hit. So, you know, you've got you've got an ad break every twenty minutes and it has to go out at that point in time. You've got to get to the news, not at five minutes past, not at five minutes to, but on the hour. There are constraints within that format with podcasting. Um, people often say or ask me, you know, how long should my podcast be? And again, the rule that I have for podcasting is your podcast should be exactly as long as it requires to be not one second longer. So if it has to be forty minutes, I mean, I dread to think what I might be getting up to. I'm already going a bit dry, but if if it ends up being forty minutes and it's an interview show, that's actually okay, um, provided you've moved it along the right way and it's been interesting. Um, if it's, uh, you know, if it's a, if it's a monologue, if it's one voice, then you've got to be very adept at changing, subject to changing tack, so that you can keep them there because you've only got your voice to work with and maybe the sounds around it. It depends what you're bringing in. Yeah. Um, but those would be shorter, I would imagine.
Yeah. I've done one. I think of our, of our series of podcasts. Uh, I think I've done one on my own. Um, the most we've had is four of us in a, in a podcast. It's usually two, quite often three. Yeah. The one I did on my own, I kind of wanted to do it, but I was like, oh, is this a bit self-indulgent? Just, just my voice, you know, I think it was only about twenty minutes in the end. I kind of quite like.
Only about twenty minutes.
It's only about twenty minutes. Uh, which is yeah, one of our shorter ones, I think. But, uh, yeah, I, I'd like to do more of them. And there are some that I listen to that are that is just one, um, I don't know, I, I, I like the conversational aspect of them. So that's probably better.
I always, I think I've said this to you before, I always think a really good podcast is a little bit like a cafe or a pub chat. So there's you and I around the table. I like to think of our listener as when I'm standing over by the dartboard in the corner. That's right. Yeah. And, and there's sort of it's, it's not, um, they don't feel that they're outside. They feel like they're sitting right beside us. And if it works right, then in this instance, you ask me the question that they want to ask. Yeah. Um, and, and I think that's, that's something that it's, it's not unique to podcasts. Uh, you get it in radio as well, but it's, it's more common within podcasts, let's say.
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think the spoken word is, I don't know if I don't know if it's become more popular. Again, I've mentioned to you before, I'm a fan of I know you work with global, but I'm a fan of LBC. Um, not all presenters, although I'll pretty much listen to any presenter, but I'm a huge fan of the spoken word. It drives Caron to distraction, you know, because it can be quite tiring, can it?
It can.
Especially if I'm consuming like political programs and things like that. But I do like the spoken word and I don't, as the spoken word, come back more because I think predominantly you've been involved in.
Music, music, radio. Yeah. Um, has it come back more? I don't know. I mean, I think possibly I don't, I part of me resents saying this. I think possibly global is uh, or LBC on global is a little bit more Americanised. So, um, you know, from listening to this to yourself, they'll take a news item of the day that they believe is popular, um, or will generate a lot of calls and the presenter will take an angle on it, they'll take it, they'll have an opinion. And I think that's a very important thing to have if you're beige, if you're bland, if you don't say, you know, if you go down that traditional route of just reporting it, you're not going to generate calls. If you go down the road and say something not necessarily outrageous, But you take an angle, you'll always have someone that's on the opposite side. Yeah. And then you'll have someone that disagrees with the last caller, and so on and so forth.
Do you think that's why a lot of BBC journals like Andrew Marr's recently joined LBC? Do you think that's why they've come across even in the promo video? Even the promo video, the promo soundbite, he was saying, yeah, I've got my voice back.
Yeah, I'll I'll, uh, I'll be honest about that. I think, I think there's an element of that. I also think, um, God love the BBC. I would defend, I'll defend the BBC and I've never. Well I'll say I've never worked for them. I do now on an occasional basis, but I would defend them to, to my last breath for what they do and how they do it. Yeah. But um, recently in terms of the salaries that people earn and things like that, they have just been typical BBC about it and they've just said, right, these are our top earners and they've just, they've let them, they've just let it go. Mhm. Um, so there are people who have been hounded for what they earn. Now look.
Well, Eddie Mair was one.
Eddie Mair LBC.
Yeah he is.
Chris Evans was another. Now he's on Virgin. It's no surprise that the top earners are now no longer there. So two things have happened. One um the commercial bodies have gone in and said well okay, so you earn, you know, three hundred and sixty thousand a year. Tell you what, we'll make it half a mil and you come up to us and we'll never tell anybody. Yeah. Um, okay. So, you know, that's, I think probably they've come across for more money. Um, I think there's a certain freedom in, in what they've been allowed to do as well. If you're coming from the BBC. Yes. The Andrew Marr thing saying I'm, you know, I'm allowed to have my own voice. Yeah. I think, I think there's an element of that as well.
Okay. So speaking about having your own voice, um, now I'm frantically watching the, the recorder because I decided to go a bit seat of the pants and not put a fresh set of batteries in before we start. And now down to one bar. But it's only. It's only got three anyway. So in theory I've got a third. So I keep glancing down. And if we have to stop and change the batteries, we will. But speaking about having your own voice, I'm kind of moving into the you know, what's in it for business? Is it about giving them a voice? And some businesses are like, we don't want a voice. We just want to serve our customers. And that's terrifying having a voice, especially bigger companies. Yeah. Um, do you think, you know, do you think it's suitable for smaller businesses? But primarily what I'm asking is what's in it for business?
Yeah.
Great example was you spoke about Phil's business, but broadly.
I do I think it's for smaller business. Yes. I mean, I don't think exclusively for smaller business. I think if you use use the medium well it can be for any business, but I do believe it's probably a really cost effective way for smaller or medium sized businesses. Um, what does it, what's in it for the business? Okay. So, um, it depends what the business is looking for. If you're a small medium business where, like Phil, your name is the one on the door. Yeah. Then quite often what that person wants is to establish themselves as an authority figure alongside their bigger competition. Um, and if they want to do that, then that is something that we do quite easily where we say, right, okay, so we're going to do your mortgage ones. We're going to do your, um, you know, uh, redundancy ones, but also when something happens locally, we're going to respond to it and we're going to give your angle, your opinion on that subject. And not only are we going to release a podcast that week, we're going to take some sound bites and we're going to put them to the local newsrooms. Okay. And we're also going to accompany it with the press release. So what happens is they come in on the Monday morning and they go, oh, we're going to do, you know, because they've had a weekend as well. What are we going to do? Oh, well, okay, so that story that we ran on Friday, this is a local guy and he's speaking out about it, right? We can breathe more life into that story. We can keep it going. Yeah. So that's what they do. And they use some of the sound clips. Now before you know it, if you're doing this on a regular basis, if you're responding to local national stories or national story with a local angle, then that news team, rather than wait for your stuff to get there, is going to come to you. Yeah. And all of a sudden, here you are speaking as this local representative and you become the local voice. It's a bit like if you work it backwards. How did Sir Ian Wood become serious mood, or how did Bob Keeler become Bob Keeler? Because they were available. Yeah. And because they knew what they were talking about, but because they actually were proactive about it and put themselves out there. Mhm.
And do you think that being proactive, the putting yourself out there. I enjoy it, I enjoy do you want some more water?
No. I'm okay. Thank you. I'm all right.
You're putting yourself out there is, I think, where some businesses or some people in those businesses start to feel uncomfortable. I, and I enjoy doing this and I am finding my feet with it. And that's great. But I think a lot of businesses are scared that they will come across like that and it will all be buried. But that's where you that's.
That's kind of where you.
Would put them at ease and get the best out of them that they don't have the.
General idea. Yeah. That's, that's, that's where I because at the end of the day, if you're doing a podcast about your own business, it's not that I'm coming in and asking you, um, you know, questions about quantum physics. I'm coming in and asking you questions about your own specialist subject. So it shouldn't be, you know, once you get into it, it's a conversation. That's right. It's the conversation that you're having every day of the week. Yeah. Um, and all we're doing is we're making it accessible for someone else to buy into it. And hopefully I'm asking the questions that they would. Yeah. So you kind of lose those inhibitions. It's a bit like, you know, if you watch, um, if you ever watch something like like Big brother or whatever, first of all, people are going about going, where are the cameras? You know, what's going on. Those inhibitions are gone by day two.
Yeah.
Literally, they've fallen away. So then you get the really horrible arguments over who's not washing the dishes. And, you know, people just they just forget that they're on camera. They forget that they're on microphone. Yeah. That's my job is to put you at your ease.
So have you, have you ever worked with a business and had to go, you know what, this isn't working. The person that they've said, right, we're going to do a podcast and John out of accounts is going to be the voice of the business. And he's also said, John, so it's John and John and now doing recording the podcast. Yeah. And it just you've struggled with it.
Where someone is, is quite dry.
Um, or just it, it just hasn't worked. You know.
I haven't yet, I haven't yet. I mean, I've had, I mean, obviously you go back over like a thirty year radio career. I've had moments, I've had bands, I've had famous people that I've interviewed who they just, you know, they'd had enough that day and they just didn't want to do it. And, and, and it's just been. Yeah, I've just been the last guy in the end of the chain and they've just thought whatever. Yeah. And I have had moments like that, but not.
This is like the Michael Parkinson interviewing. Oh no. When Harry met Sally what's the, uh.
Melanie Griffith? Yeah. Yeah, he.
Interviewed her and she seemed to be having one of those days.
Yeah.
And Parky, who was the consummate interviewer, just went, oh, you know what?
Although, yeah, yeah, that's the thing. I mean, there were there was a, you know, a really bold streak of Yorkshireman in that interview. Uh, he, he was to use a good North East word. He was thran. You know, he's, he was, he's stubborn. Yeah. Um, and I didn't I've watched that interview a couple of times. And the first time I saw it, I thought she was awful. And the second time I saw it, I thought, no. Okay. Right. If you're an American and you've never met Michael Parkinson. Yeah. I thought he there was something he said and it just triggered that defense mechanism in her.
Okay.
And from that point she shut down. Yeah. And he just made it more uncomfortable because by that point he was he was like, well, you're not playing the game.
Yeah.
Um, and I kind of understood it more from her point of view. Second time I watched it.
I guess the thing with podcast as well, I mean, if we, if we'd started off today and, you know, ten minutes in, it was like pulling teeth, we could have both looked at each other and gone, this isn't working. Let's not bother. But in your previous or not, not previous, you still do live radio in that environment, you've got to somehow keep things moving. And I guess there's an element of you don't quite have that with the podcast. Is that good or bad? Does it does it mean that you, when it's live and it's, you know, I play in a band, we go and we practice and, oh, that didn't go very well. So what? But when, when we're in front of a crowd of people who've come out to be entertained. Mhm. Different. Altogether different. So is it different or are you still trying to get the best no matter the medium?
I think you still try and get the best. Um, I, the one of the things that I sort of caution about if you're doing a podcast on your own and you know, you're just you're doing it from, from a standing start and you've never done anything like this before. Um, you can practice and practice and practice, but at some point you have to say, right, this is the one, you know, we're going to do it. We're going to try, you know, hit record. Off we go. And you actually have to be prepared to put it out there, warts and all. Yeah. Uh, and it will get better over time. It genuinely will. But you can practice into oblivion and talk yourself out of it. Um, when you're live and I try and get my podcast to do this all the way through it, just keep going. Don't ever say, oh, I didn't like the way I said that word or I coughed or whatever. Get it on the edit. Yeah. Forget about it just now. Get it on the back end. That's my job as well. Yeah. I make you sound great. Yeah. So, um, don't worry about it. Just keep going. And if you're in a live environment, especially if it's if it's radio or, you know, if it's a gig, people are going to make mistakes. It's. It is folly to assume that they won't. And it's just not practical. It will happen. The ability to get out of mistake once one's been made is a far greater ability to have than avoid making one in the first place. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think we're we're kind of teasing out what's in it for business. Um, well, I guess we were talking more there about. Don't be afraid to do it. Yeah. You know, like someone like yourself will bring out the best in you. Plus, if you then go down the, you know, line of really skillful editing, the end product is going to be great. Yeah, but still, what is in it for them? I mean, we alluded to it when you spoke about Phil. He's generating business. Yeah. Well there you go. Yeah. So what's in it for him. One of the things anyway.
You want to generate more. You want to generate more revenue. I mean the other so again you take your first five um most research questions. You make your first five episodes about those. Okay. so it's a little bit like when you go networking, if someone buys in because they want to say you're a plumber and you, you, your first one is about fixing a leaky tap. Great. They're in. Um, so they want to find out more about you, but they don't want to come and spend money in your store just yet. So you keep giving them more and more and more. And as they listen, they learn how to do stuff. They learn. If they needed that tool, then they could get it from you. And by episode four or five, they're thinking, I like this guy. He's funny as well. You know, I warmed to him. Yeah. So they know you. They've got to know, like, and trust you over a few episodes. And now they're willing to come in and buy that tool that they need to do that job that you told them how to do it. Sure. Yeah. So it's that sort of element and you do it in podcast terms. You're doing it for multiple people, all of whom think that they're the only person that's listening and you're doing it whilst you're sleeping. Because once your podcast episodes are out there, it's there for eternity.
That's right. Absolutely. Do you think it's important to think of a podcast as something that will be consumed in its entirety? And by that I mean a season. Do you think I mean, for example, there's a few podcasts I listen to regularly, but now and again, I'll look at the episode notes and think, no, I don't want I'm not going to listen to that. I've got other things to do. I'm not I'm not investing in that particular subject. I'm talking about maybe some of the digital marketing podcasts I listen to, which are specifically for agencies. And it's like, it's a, it's a topic that I'm all over it. I don't need that. So I'll just skip it. So, so what I'm driving at is when we speak to companies about their website, for example, every page of your website is like a landing page. And people, you know, if I look at the stats for our website right now, I'll see that most people who came to our website looked at one or two pages. Now and again, we'll see people looking at ten pages there, maybe really scoping us out, but quite often people come in, get the information and leave, you know, and that. Do you think with podcasting, it's you should accept that or you should rage against it or.
That's a good question. I, I think.
Finally, a good.
Question. It's something it's something I, I haven't really considered and I've done, you know, some of the podcasts that I do are seasonal and some of them are what we call ongoing. Yeah. Like yours. Yeah. Um, I think in terms of a season, the thing that I would try to do is storyboard a season so that every episode becomes critical when I'm talking about season, I'm talking about maybe anywhere between, say, six and twelve episodes. Let's just call it somewhere in the tens, you know, as good a number as any, but you're talking about a finite amount. Yeah. Um, and I try when I'm recording a season to storyboard it in advance and then reverse engineer it. So what am I going to put into each episode? And what am I going to put into each episode that is Pivotal that someone listens. I don't. By the same token, I don't want to punish them if they don't. So I don't want I don't, you know, hang on. Where did that character go? They were there last week.
Yeah. Yeah.
I don't want to punish them, but I want to try and tease them as much as I can to do it.
Make them regulars.
And yeah, to make them regulars and to have something unfold over the seven episodes or the eight episodes. That is a natural generic, uh, pattern of information. Yeah. So, you know, if it's, if, if you're, it works especially well for something like an educational podcast. Yeah. If you're teaching someone a course, then, you know, if we're teaching someone how to podcast, then, you know, the first episode might be, what's your podcast going to be about? What's your artwork going to be about? Yeah. How often are you going to to do an episode? When's it going? You know, so and you plan it all out like that. So you can, you can actually then make your podcast in, in, in that fashion. I don't think if it's an interview podcast like this, I don't think if you know someone misses this episode, then they're going to lose out in life necessarily. But, um, as long as you don't do that either, as long as you don't punish them for, for, for missing that, you can't force someone to do something they don't want to do.
Yeah. I mean, what we'll do is typically we'll say, oh, by the way, if you're interested in this and you missed it, you know, a couple of shows ago, we spoke to whoever and we talked about this and that hopefully is doing something similar to to your teaser, if you like that you're putting in your shows that to try and get them to come back to the next one, maybe.
Yeah. I mean, calls to action work pretty well as well. You know, if you, if you're, you know, say, for instance, I, I always maintain that for the first and you've probably worked against this. There's no, there are no absolutes, but there are guidelines that I work with. And I always tell a client for the first ten episodes, let's devise your format. Let's stick to your format. Let's allow someone to build the habit of liking you. Yeah. And then once they like you, then you can go away from the format a little bit. So say it's an interview show you, you and me interview ten episodes. Fine. Done. Different interview each week. Yeah. In episode eleven, if you want to say right. Um, this week we've got a guest. But I thought what might be quite fun is, you know, this guest. So why don't you send me some of your, um, your questions? If you do that on the, on, on, at the back end of episode ten and the questions come in, then they're going to listen to episode eleven.
Yeah.
That's right. Because they want to know that if their questions, especially if they've uploaded it and it's, you know, it's actually decent quality and it's their voice. Fantastic. Yeah. So, you know, you can hook them in that way.
So that kind of leads us on quite nicely to, um, a bit of a practical question, some, some of the essential do's and don'ts for people who are thinking of running a podcast. I mean, I mean, I personally don't like scripted, as you can see. I, I get notes so, so that I can try and keep the thing flowing. But we've, we've avoided anything that's scripted. Do you have a view on that?
I, um, when I, when I'm on air on, on the radio and, and I've learned this over thirty years, I do tend to script. Um, but I have learned how to script conversationally, right? And I've learned when to throw a script away. Yeah. And I've learned when to bring it back in. Um, and script for me tend to be bullet pointy. Yes. Um, so that they keep me reined in when I need to be and then let me go free when I want to roam. Yeah. Um, but I do tend to use a script, especially when it's that sort of bread and butter stuff about podcasting whereby, you know, please find us here and, um, you know, make sure you come back next, next time and we're going to be talking about that when it's the nuts and bolts of it, I tend to.
But it would be fair to say that would be like an improv script. It's, as you say, bullet points. So we want to cover these things. You're not actually reading?
No, sometimes I am. Yeah, sometimes I am. But I've learned. I've learned to do it. So it's conversational. Yeah. Um, in terms of dos and dos and don'ts, uh, there is a perception amongst people who start podcasting that because they're podcasting, because they're speaking into microphone, they have to sound like what somebody sounds like when they're speaking into a microphone.
Smashie.
And nicey and they go and you think, where did that voice come from? Um, the other thing that happens a lot is when someone has played back their voice for the first time, they go, oh, that's not me.
Yeah.
I said, no, no it is. Oh, it sounds terrible.
Yeah.
Get used to it. Get over.
It. Mhm.
Um, it's, it's a bit like, you know, if you take the London Philharmonic from the Royal Albert Hall and you stick them in a pub, do you think they're going to sound the same? So your voice outside your head sounds different to your voice within your head?
Very much.
So. Um, uh, it's it's that kind of thing. There are lots of standard slip ups that you just have to get used to. It's, you know, it's time in the saddle. A lot of it. Yeah. Um, what are your other do's and don'ts that you've got written down?
Well, I was thinking, you know, people that are trying to be funny, you like you, I think you we spoke about this briefly before we started recording and fair enough. If you're a comedian, people have logged into your podcast because they want to laugh. Yeah. Even if it's something, you know, maybe some comedians will do, like Geoff Norcott, uh, favorite of mine, his podcast is it's about, it's called what most people think. So it's about what most people think. It's politics, all kinds of things. But he is funny with it, but he's not doing his stand up routine. Um, and I think there's a danger that people, you know, there's nothing worse than being somebody trying to be funny when they're not.
Absolutely. So, I mean, you come around to the, the three main pillars of all content, all communication, which is, you know, educate, entertain and inform. Now you've got to be doing one of them to be of service. You have to at least be trying to get one of them out there. And if you're doing a business podcast, the chances are that you're educating or you're informing if you're entertaining alongside that. Great.
Yeah.
Don't make it the holy grail. You're not out in Dec. Nobody is tuned in for you to be Ant and Dec. Right. I mean, I, I've, I've done podcasts with with plumbers who have been the funniest guys I have ever heard in my entire life.
I can imagine tradespeople.
Fantastic. But it's purely by chance. You know, it's just this, it was just the chemistry they had between them and actually pulling them back in and saying, right, okay, this is what we're working on, guys. Right. So, um, you know, they weren't, it wasn't a case of getting them to come out of the box. It was a case of getting them to go back into it. You know, they were out of the box and dancing on the lid these guys. So actually tying them in and forcing them to do what they should was a little bit difficult for us, but they got there. Yeah. And then the fun stuff that we did on the side of that was, was amazing. It's probably what sold the podcast, but they were always all of them. They were all trying to lose weight. So we just had a weigh in at the end of each each week. And, um, and we had people, you know, like writing in after a while saying, you know, well, well done. You've lost a couple of I did too. I'm training for such, you know, and then you've got a two way conversation and you've got a connection. Yeah. And that makes people come back.
Well, the two way conversation and the connection is a great point because one of the other things I was wondering about was people becoming too self indulgent, just assuming that, hey, you know, I've recorded this, um, seventy five minute podcast and you will listen to it. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I would say a good starting point. If it's a hobby podcast, if it's, if it's, um, just something that's personal to you and you're doing it in your spare time for fun, um, is what you're talking about popular anyway, you know, do people care about it? So if you're going to do one about Man United, the chances are you're going to get listeners, uh, especially if you've got any quality audio about Man United, like, um, some sort of commentary or some sort of access to players, then then it's going to be popular. Um, so at least give yourself a chance is what I would say. Yeah. Um, it can still be niche. Um, you know, you know, people still love fly time. People still love photography. People still love certain things that are considered to be niche. Um, but there are enough of them to populate a podcast on a regular basis.
That's right. That's right. One of the things that I like about doing the podcast is it produces what some people might refer to as content at scale. Now, I'm not necessarily talking about once we finished this podcast, we'll get a transcript and hey, we've got a blog post because that isn't, you know, our spoken word is not a good blog post, but it gives us opportunities to reuse this content. Now, it might be sound bites, and I definitely think that you've got way more experience at this than we have, uh, being relative newcomers to podcasting. But for example, um, if I'm joining in a conversation on Twitter about search engine optimisation, I've dropped in a link to a podcast because they've been talking about something, say, we discussed this in a, in a podcast, it's not hijacking. It's actually trying to add some value because we don't make any money out of it. It's just trying to help people. We've even because we do our proposals as electronic documents effectively, like mini websites, um, we've started dropping podcasts into them as well. So if anyone is genuinely engaged in the proposal, they can get. So it's giving us other opportunities. And I've heard you allude to how you've managed to use the podcasts in different ways. Yeah.
So yeah, so and also what you're talking about there, I would reverse that. So you're talking about taking some of the podcasts and maybe making blogs out of it. I always encourage, um, my clients to look at their blogs because everyone, everyone in their dog's got a blog pretty much. So look at the blogs that you've produced in the past. And can we turn that into a podcast? The nuts and bolts of that, can we make that into a podcast? Yeah, nine times out of ten. Yeah. We can. So yeah, repurposing content works. But in terms of, um, what we do, I really like the idea of what you're, what you're talking about there about putting in some of your podcasts into proposals. I'd love to see how that works. The thing that I might say about it is you again, you can't change the way people live. So if they're reading a proposal and it's during the working day and the podcast is forty minutes long, they're not going to listen to the forty minute podcast, but they might watch 40s. And when I say watch, I actually do mean watch because the video is more likely to get their attention straight off. And that's kind of what we sell. So, um, again, let's use Phil's an example. Phil, what are we talking about today? Oh, well, in today's show, uh, what I thought we'd look at is blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. Snip. Okay, so we're going to take that front 40s. And I'm going to caption the audio and I'm going to take the video of that as well and get it captioned. And we're going to roll that out. Now these shouldn't stand alone. They can, but they shouldn't. They should have a little bit of a LinkedIn post beside them, let's say. And then you put the video up there. Um, and whether someone is watching on mute or otherwise, they're going to get the information because they got captioned audio and that can bring them into the podcast for the following week. Yeah. Um, there's that kind of thing. And these things can go through social. The other thing you were talking about there was leveraging the audience of somebody else. So if you're taking a podcast from a standing start and you're thinking, well, how, how am I going to get an audience? And your podcast is about DIY, then find out where these places exist on Facebook and on Twitter, and get on the DIY pages and become a member of these forums. Ask questions, answer questions, establish a little bit of knowledge. And then once you've been there for, say, a month, maybe a month and a half, you've probably earned the right to drop in a link to your podcast. So when someone's asking a question, you say, well, actually, um, you know, we talked about this in episode twelve just a couple of weeks back. Rather than put the whole thing here, I've dropped in a link and you can have a listen, you know, if you want to at your own leisure. That's right. Rather than me explain it because that'll take forever.
Yeah. And I think the opportunities to do that, I think we're we're on episode. I think when this goes out, John, this will be episode fifty two, I think something like that. Yeah. And so you find it's like when you, you mentioned blogs and everyone's got a blog and we could talk about whether they're doing that right or not. But anyway, uh, everyone's got a blog, but once you start to build up this, this, this content, blogs, podcasts or anything, it's there to draw on, especially the evergreen stuff. Some of it's current, it's like it's of the moment that's gone, but the evergreen stuff. Um, yeah, we're constantly drawing on it. Yeah.
Well, I mean, that's the thing with podcasts as well that there again, without, you know, going into something that's stats heavy, there are just as many listens to podcasts which have been out for a couple of years as there are podcasts which have come out last week. Yeah. So, you know, if especially again, if it's something that is educational and it's not time stamped, I mean, the finance one is not a good one to use in this instance because regulations change all the time. But if it's if it's something like, you know, how to make a macrame basket, for instance. Yeah. Um, then even.
Looking at my profile on the website.
Yeah. It's, it's not gonna, it's not gonna change. Yeah. You know, those beads are still beads. Those ropes are still ropes. Um, and the way that you weave them is still going to be the same. Why you maybe attempt to do that in a podcast? Okay. I would, I would grant you possibly lends itself more to.
Like a challenge.
Yeah. Um, but.
You did mention fly tying because in a blog post on your site, I was, I was reading, you talked about a podcast about fly tying. Yeah. And I was thinking I was one of the most intricate, complicated things, even when you can see them do it. Yeah, I what I.
Would suggest, what I would suggest in that one is that you publish on a, a website which has accompanying visuals.
That's right.
Um, but you know, the idea of, um, actually then having some audio that goes alongside it that, you know, six o'clock in the morning and you're standing on the D is that silent? You'd be surprised, you know, if you actually just walked down there with your phone and switched it on and, and you're automatically there.
Yeah.
That's right. Um, so yeah, it would work.
That's right. This is, uh, this has been fantastic. Um, I'm learning a lot. I hope you are too. The guys who are listening, um, how do people. Well, first of all, can you outline the kind of services that you're providing? We've talked about a lot of them, but what sort of talk about, you know, some of the services that you're providing, how people get in touch, how you would like them to get in touch, that kind of thing.
Yeah. So I, um, I do a few things. It's all, it's all centers around sound. So I, I work in radio. I work helping people make podcasts and launch podcasts. I do voiceovers, all that sort of stuff. Um, and just recently I have published, I say an e-book that's probably insulting to people who publish ebooks on a regular basis. It's a glorified pamphlet, but what it will do is it will take you from zero to hero in terms of launching a podcast and maintaining a podcast. Um, and I've also set up an online course where we take you through everything that you need to know about podcasting, except for one element. I'll tell you about that in a minute. Um, that is on winbizpod.com.
Biz with a z or?
Biz with a Z. Yeah, we'll.
Put those links in the show notes on on redevolution.com/digital-marketing-from-the-coalface.
Um, is winbizpod.com. It's the course is win business podcasting the art of talking up your business. Okay. Um, so the book itself, the, the book is pitch perfect podcasts. I can't even say it. Great for someone who works in the audio business. And then when business podcasting. But over and above that, if if you get into that and you still think, you know, I see the value of podcasting, I see what we can do with the podcast, but I don't think I've got the time to do this. Uh, I still want to do it then. Then we'll make one for you. We do it from from start to finish on a regular basis with loads of clients every week.
And does that have to be in person or are you happy doing it across the world?
Yeah. Like I said, I have clients that I've never met, um, from, from all over the world. Really? Mhm. Um, I mean, a lot of local clients, but I, you know, I have some that aren't in this country. Um, and, uh, again, I have if, if two in the morning UK time works for you, then that's fine by me. Make it work. Yeah. Um, my wife might not be best pleased with that, but, um, it's, uh, everyone has a studio at home though. Um, then then then we'll make it work. Um, so yeah, those, those are the kinds of things that I do. Um, and if you have an idea for a podcast, um, or, or you think, well, yeah, I'd like to start when I'm interested in it, then that is the best place to get me is through https://www.mellismedia.com/
Okay, perfect. That's been a delight. Anything that we didn't cover, we covered quite a lot and we wandered around a bit, which I expected to do and enjoyed, and I hope people enjoy listening to it. Um, I think we've covered everything we need to cover.
Yeah, I'll stick with that because I'm, you know, the internal, the internal clock in my head is going, John, shut up now. Shut up.
Well, I'm not saying that, but, uh, I think we've got to the point where we've got a lot of information to people for people to sort of digest it. And what I would encourage people to do is, is get in touch. Uh, and we'll put the link into, onto redevolution.com/digital-marketing-from-the-coalface, the podcast website. Um, in the meantime, if you want to come on the show, we'd love to hear from you. Uh, if you want to talk about digital marketing, business growth, that kind of thing. If you've got questions, you can send them in. Um, John, it's been a delight. Thank you, thank you.