Transcript of Digital Marketing From The Coalface, Episode 57

Just by way of summing up, what should people expect typically from an investment in CRO?

I think from an ROI perspective, it multiplies all of the spend the ROI of all the spend you're doing on marketing.

Love that.

Yeah. So if you take ten percent of your current marketing spend, let's say the bottom ten percent and put it to CRO, you're going to up the impact of the ninety percent you're already doing. If you're not doing CRO and you're spending money getting people to your site, you are under-investing in making sure that ad performance and those investments to get people there perform on the longer term scale. It helps instill a curiosity, culture, or an experimentation culture for your team. If you think you know your customer now, CRO is the way to get to know them better. It's the way to know what makes them tick. It's the way to know which little snippet of phrasing is going to help them respond to it. And so you can take those learnings and apply it to your whole organisation. So it's short term revenue gain long term. Tons of learnings.

Okay. Welcome back to Digital Marketing From The Coalface. Um, this week you've got Alex and me, uh, talking to AJ Davis from Experiment Zone. Really looking forward to this one. Um, this is going to be an interesting podcast for lots of reasons for us. And we're hoping that you're going to get a lot of value from it as well. Before we go any further, AJ, why should we be interested in what you've got to say about what we're going to talk about today? I'll let you introduce the subject and introduce you. And tell us a bit about how you got to where you are now and why this stuff's important.

Yeah, I guess I'll say it's the most boring possible topic, so don't keep listening. Aha. No, I absolutely love conversion rate optimisation. I've kind of stumbled into it by accident. And so I can tell you a little bit about how I got into this. Um, but day in and day out, I get to learn all kinds of things about what makes people tick and how they respond to different designs and experiences out in the world. So I'm always surprised. Humans are really a surprising and interesting. And so I get to get that insight all the time. Okay. I got into conversion rate optimisation by way of being a UX researcher.

Okay. And just before we go any further, yeah, just, just to be crystal clear, tell us what conversion rate optimisation is without using the words conversion rate optimisation.

Yeah. In three words, it's oh, is it four words turning visitors into customers?

Brilliant.

That's five words.

That's good. That's fine.

Now we won't hold it against you.

I just thought it was kind of syllables. Counting's hard on the spot.

That's exactly what we wanted to hear. Perfect. Sorry. Carry on.

Yeah. So I came into this world by way of being in the product space. So I worked on digital products as a UX researcher. I've always been really curious about what makes people tick and what we respond to. And the answer is like, we're not very predictable. And so we need to have these techniques and approaches to understand how people do respond to things, because our models aren't very good yet. So I worked on UX research, which meant I got to interview hundreds of people, got to watch how they use technology, got to figure out the ways that technology didn't work for them. And I got to do that eventually on a team at Google that ended up building Google Optimize, which is their A B testing platform. And a B testing is one of the core methods within this bucket of conversion rate optimisation. So I got to interview people at a whole variety of companies who got to do this work. And I realised that they got to do something that I was missing in my work, which was you get to find the problem. You get to see where there's friction between people and technology. And then within this space, we get to then create a solution, test it out in the real world and see whether or not it held up.

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. So the the whole idea with the work that you're doing is to remove friction, try and get people to do something that results in them doing something that you want them to do. Might just be making a purchase, might be engaging, filling in a form, any, any number of things.

Absolutely. I think friction is the first place. It's like the starting place. If you've got a lot of bumps along the way, people are going to get distracted. They're going to leave. Um, it's also about testing things that are more innovative to see whether or not they're helpful or not. So sometimes it's most of the time it's about removing friction, making it very usable. And then other times it's about saying, is this product offering this new line useful? Are my customers interested? Can they find it? And so it's about striking that right balance from the marketing team's goals and objectives with what the customer is there to do.

Okay. Got you. And when it comes to where you are now with respect to offering this service. How did you get from, you know, getting interested in this subject to being the CEO of a business that specialises in this subject?

Mhm.

Yeah. I, uh, I was one of those people that left Google and decided to pursue a new path. And so a lot of my colleagues looked at me sideways, like, isn't this what we were all trying to work for? Why are you leaving? Mhm. It was a wonderful place to work, but I just wanted to do something different. And I had worked in consulting before. I love doing lots of things that can kind of connect the dots. So working with lots of clients on lots of problems really speaks to me. Um, I went and worked at another agency for a year before starting Experiment Zone to really understand that model and understand how it all worked. So I got to be a senior optimisation director across some really huge brands here in the United States, and then also started their research practice. So I got to see the strength of that intersection between qualitative user research. And then the a B testing work that the other agency specialised in. So went off and created an agency that that really strove to get that right balance.

So are you familiar with the book by I think it's American guy, Michael Gerber, the E-myth. Are you familiar with that book at all? So the E-myth is basically about how people have a specific skill. Like they might be a carpenter or they might be a blacksmith, or they might be a conversion rate optimisation specialist, and they decide to create a business out of that. And, and then they realise, wait a minute, I'm good at blacksmithing and carpentering and crowing. But actually, when it comes to running an agency, how have you found the transition from working for an agency to running an agency?

I love it keeps my job more interesting.

Every day than it was.

Before. I love doing the Sierra work, but I also really, really love growing a team of people and introducing them to the world and helping them grow in what they're doing. I find that I was afraid of the word sales for a long time, and now it's like, that's like my favorite part of my day is talking to people who either have tried testing and it hasn't worked out or have never really been exposed to it. I've switched from thinking of it as like me pitching them, and more just about me learning where they are and what problems they have and how we can help them.

Yeah, I mean, as an agency, you know, we we can both Alex and I can identify with that. Um, you know, when we get an enquiry in now, you know, if somebody says, hey, can you help us? Our response is probably, we don't know. We'd love to find out if we can help you. And that's it is a great, great aspect, if you like, of being involved in this industry and running this industry. If you if you go about it the right way, which is certainly what you're doing. And I think it's what we're doing as well. So Alex has got a lot of questions written down and I've dominated so far, even though I said I'd probably listen mostly. So I'm going to shut up. And Alex is going to ask you a few questions. And I've got an idea that maybe will do a kind of almost like a we'll make a case study up. We'll kind of do a case study about CRO, but we'll make it up. We'll just sort of go with the flow and, and I'll throw some ideas up and I'll invent a company or we'll all three of us form a company or something, and we'll go about doing some CRO. But in the meantime, Alex, what have you got to ask?

Well, one of the. So one of the first things, I guess, is, as you probably know, most of the people or some of the people listening to this podcast are people who are kind of maybe thinking about dabbling with this kind of stuff, but maybe have heard about it. And one of the things that I think is really interesting about CRO is it kind of often gets put into that bucket of either kind of too complex, as in, I don't want to touch that because there's so many different things or too simple as in, oh, you're just going to be changing the color of buttons on my website. I just wondered like, what, what, how do you kind of approach those kind of issues and problems?

Wait a minute. You must have googled that question. That's way too clever. You didn't make that question up, did you?

I did make that question amazing.

I'm amazed. AJ over to you.

Yeah, I have an answer for that. But I would say one of my observations is to like, reflect back what you just said. It's kind of the state of the industry around conversion rate optimisation right now is not really being sure where it should live in the organisation or what role it should play strategically. Um, it's very similar to what UX research was about ten to fifteen years ago where people weren't really sure, is it marketing? Is it engineering? So I feel like I've lived through this transition in another role and now I'm seeing it again. Um, I think the answer for, for both or for, for how I think about CRL is that everything should come down to like, what is our company goal? What is the question we need to learn about? And then what's the solution? And probably nine times out of ten or maybe ninety nine out of one hundred people start with the solution. In CRO, they say red button or blue button. And my question is, why do we think that matters? Is that the is that the most important question that we need to learn about right now? And so if you come to crow with the idea of learning and building a system of knowledge that can then be applied across the business, you can ask easier questions that can have a really big impact without having to overcomplicate it and create a brand new website to a B test against, or to oversimplify it and say, do our customers care about the button being blue or red? Because that's not going to have a really global impact.

Okay, so I'm going to interject. Sorry. Um, the, the idea of a B testing again, could you explain a B testing without using the term a B testing.

Yeah. So we all go to like a website. Actually I'd love to think about a physical store. So it's this is an imperfect example, but if you think about the big box stores of the world, they have so many store locations. I'll use Walmart for an example. They have this cookie cutter design to walk into the store. And what they'll do is they'll say half the stores will be this design, half the stores will be this other design, and we'll see what ends up happening. Do people buy different products because they're moving through the store in a different way? Do they have trouble finding the checkout or does the line get too long? And so in the same way, we can do that in the physical world to say, what are the two different experiences? Measure what people do and how they react to it? We can do that even more easily in the digital space. So there's a bunch of tools out there that let us kind of edit the page and show two different versions of it at the same time. And then what we do is just look at how people respond to it differently between the two experiences. Hence the A and the B. And the test is that it's not a permanent change. It's something that we're going to measure for a certain amount of time. Once we're sure which A or B works, we roll that out to everyone.

I have a theory that the people who design the software that lets you do a B testing must be just the brightest people in the world. Do you have a view on that at all? Have you ever been involved in any sort of product development in this in this sphere?

Smooth.

I, everyone I worked with on that team at Google was incredible. We had a great time. Um, we spent many, many hours just brainstorming and thinking about the problem in addition to like getting a lot of user research. So it's both like the people are smart and creative, but also are data driven themselves and are looking for those inputs. So I would, I would say, yes, I'll echo that back to you.

So one of the things I think just to kind of feedback on what you're saying, so essentially the real skill is in knowing kind of what question to ask, right? Or you know, what, how to identify the problems in the first place. And I guess that's one of the things that I can see a lot of listeners, certainly when we started doing CRO stuff, that was one of the things I think I found quite challenging was, you know, kind of working out where to spend your energy, where to kind of look and how to come up with those hypotheses that says, you know, we could potentially improve the way this page performs by X, Y, and Z. Do you have any tips for kind of coming up with those, like spotting the problems, I guess.

Mhm. That's a great question. You know, this is one of those things coming from a research background. I found that I was not challenged by that at all. And in growing an agency, I've had to create a system that works for other people to operate in. To find the top opportunities. The approach we generally take is to look for signals of problems. So how much signal do we get from different data points that say that this is an issue? So you can start simple with like what kind of customer service complaints do you get? You could add a layer of data. Are people scrolling down to this thing that I think is important on my page? You can add even more by looking deeply into your analytics and saying, what are the drop off points? Whereas the biggest drop off point, what's changed the most over the last year? So you can start digging deeper into the data. But I think the most powerful thing that is probably the hardest skill to execute on is doing good user research. So if I can take the time to do a usability study on a site before I start testing on it, I'm going to have a much higher win rate and much higher impact on revenue, because I'm basing it on real problems that we've observed in a setting that was intentional. So it's a range, but you can start anywhere. You just have to start by stating like, what is what's the problem I think I have and how much information do I have that supports the problem?

Okay, so when we're talking about user testing, are we talking about getting kind of members of the public to play through the site and you watch them do that? Or is it more just kind of like you'll sit there and look over a site and kind of immediately be able to say, okay, this, this could potentially be a problem. This might cause friction or.

It's a range. Um, I think what I had, what I'm imagining is a five person usability study where you're having people go through structured tasks. So the idea is to create that scenario that's as realistic as possible with the target audience. However, you know, as practitioners, we, we get more reps at this. So it's easier for us to sit down and do that kind of expert review of an experience and see those more clearly.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Definitely. I think to be fair, I think that's something we've talked about before, isn't it, as doing more of that kind of getting members of the public involved and kind of looking over people's shoulders and Spotting problems.

Yeah. And for anybody listening, what we're what we're talking about, if we say user testing, um, or other, you know, things that describe user testing is, as AJ said, watching people actually use your website will, will bring up some quite clear evidence that things are not right. It will give you some really good insights into how people are using your website. And it takes the whole design. Well, I'll say quite a lot of time when websites are created, they're created almost by committee. Well, I think this will I think that and we should do this and we should do that. And this stuff removes all that because it shows you what works and what doesn't work. Or at least, you know, that fantastic thing that you built, you put it in front of people and they're not doing what you expected them to do. You know, you should be grown up enough to take that on board and think, right, we got this wrong. We need to think. We need to rethink it.

Perhaps I've never user tested a site without finding opportunity. So I think rather than thinking of it as like we made it made a mistake in the first go round or we didn't make a perfect site. Yeah. Is that user research brings the opportunity to bring in fresh perspective to the design. Um, the other thing it does that I think a lot of businesses forget about is that user experiences across the whole web are changing every single day. So user expectations are changing every single day. So if we user tested it when we built the site three years ago, there's changes in what people expect and how they think about your products. And so you want to be capturing that information as often as possible so that you're not outdated and building what you're like and striving for what you're building for.

Okay. Okay. So have you got anything you want to come back with on that?

Well, yeah, I was just gonna ask. So on that, on that kind of note about kind of people's expectations, do you find that there's a lot of variation depending on kind of the demographic that you're testing for or that you're designing for? Because I think one of the things we hear a lot because we work with a lot of B2B companies is, oh, you know, I know that my audience does this or that. My audience thinks this. And I just wonder, like, obviously you kind of do this stuff day in, day out. Do you think there is a lot of difference in what different demographics expect on the internet, or is there kind of can you design more broadly than that, I guess?

Great question. You know, I think demographics themselves can have a factor. You know, different generations grew up with different technology and may see things or not see things. But I like to think of it instead as like, what is the audience for this particular product or offering? Because it will be unique. In my experience, though, the closer we are to those end users, like we've built this software product, we're doing this B2B marketing, and we're trying to speak their language. We kind of get stuck because we're too close to it.

Mhm.

So I'll give an example. We had a client we were working with and they had an incredibly smart team, incredibly data driven. They looked at every single perspective on like all the segments. And we said, have you ever talked to your sales team? And they said, well, we've talked to sales leadership.

And I said, have.

You ever talked to your sales team about how they close the deal? And so we took the time to interview that team, and we were able to create an experience that converted one hundred percent better than the experience that existed before. And it just comes down to like bringing that new perspective or thinking about the problem a little differently for like, what are the words the sales team uses? Can we use those words on the website? It's, it's so obvious when I explain it, but when you're like really deep into it and you're in the org structure, it's really hard to get those fresh perspectives.

Okay. Okay. So we've got, um, an engineering company, business to business. They build widgets, something I don't know, it does something clever and it's quite expensive. Um, they've got what they think is a great website. They get, they've got good search traction. They're getting traffic to their website. They're just kind of thinking based on the number of visitors we get to our website. You know, we're just not getting many enquiries. We've redesigned redesigned the Redesign the website. A bunch of times this is the third iteration. Nothing much has changed during that time, and they come along to Experiment Zone and say, hey Jay, what do you think? Where do you what would you where do you start with with a situation like that? They've kind of notionally thought, well, maybe there's a problem once people get to the site because we seem to be getting visitors. And I guess a lot of CRO is about getting more value out of the visitors you're already getting, as opposed to, say, search engine optimisation, where you just give me more, give me more. We want more visitors.

So yeah, I mean, our starting place, we, we, we always try to like, get as much of a brain dump from the other team as possible. So we do a pretty extensive kickoff where we're just like asking, asking question after question after question. And it's really the one time where we're just sitting back and listening and not providing a lot of strategic input because we want to make sure we understand what they've tried, we've understand, we understand, like what kind of feedback they've gotten, what their assumptions are that they haven't had a chance to test out yet. And then once we have a good baseline understanding of the business and what they think they know or that they do know about their audience, we will actually, we'd love to start testing right away because we think that there's some out of the box stuff that we can see and that we have a pretty good gut reaction to that doesn't need a lot of evidence to get going, right, to get those initial swings at the bat. Um, however, we also then kick off that user research I talked about. So the combination of like, let's get some tests out there. Let's not wait to see if we can have an impact in combination to like, let's figure out what the biggest burning problems are to the experience. So in that case, we would probably look to, you know, have some of their target prospects, maybe five to ten of them go through the website and go through, hey, here's, you know, what kind of information do you need to know about this software widget? Uh, like what problem do you have that this widget could solve? Is it clear that it's solving that or not? Based on what you see here, what do you expect to happen once you reach out and fill out this form? Um, is it clear? Do you feel excited about it? Do you dread having to have this phone call with.

Them.

And just kind of dig into both the, the, what can they figure out what the site's about? The why do they understand the motivation? Does it speak to them? And then just making sure expectations align? I think a really big part of what I do that I didn't realise coming into this world, um, and CRO is like a lot of times expectations are, are misaligned. And that's the easiest opportunity to start with. If we can make sure our customers understand what they're getting and what the experience will be like, they feel more confident to go forward instead of kind of sitting back and going, hmm, I wonder if I'm going to have customer support on the weekends if I'm working on this tool or I wonder, um, is there a guarantee if I don't like this the first thirty days, do I have to keep the full year subscription? And so like looking for what those expectation questions are is also a great place to start with figuring out where those opportunities lie. It's even just for the team.

Stuff as well, like you touched on before, like knowing what's going to happen when you fill in a form is a really fundamental part of it, right? It's like you want to know whether somebody's going to ring you up or whether you're going to get an email or whatever. Yeah.

It's just how many times have you been on sites where it's like a contact page in an empty form? Yeah, it just says name, email, empty form. And you're like, well, what's going to happen? Who's gonna get it? What kind of information should I be providing you? Like, what is this going to look like? Are you going to start spamming me with an email every day? Like, what's the experience going to be like?

Yeah, we when we started looking at CRO some time ago, that was one of the first things that we made, you know, changes that we made was the forms on our website actually has a little paragraph which says, and if you fill this form in, this is what will happen as a result of doing it. We, you know, we'll get back to you, we'll do this, we'll do X, Y, or Z. And, uh, yeah, it was like, maybe like so much in CRO when you're, when you're given a piece of information like that, you're like, well, yeah, that's just a great idea. But we would never have thought of it until we started looking into this whole area of optimisation.

I think the other one that comes up for me a lot, that's a bit unexpected, or I see come up as an issue on a lot of sites is like when you, when someone lands on the page, let them know what they should do next, even before they start looking at it. So have some sort of call to action at the top of the page so they know like once, okay, I'm ready to take action. What is the action like? Guide me to the next thing. So many times you'll look at a page and it'll be like picture words, words, picture words, words form. So you don't have any way to like jump on it when you're ready to go.

Mhm. Yeah. That's right. Okay. So so initially you're, you've got obviously a wealth of experience. So you can see some what might be called low hanging fruit or we can see a clear opportunity there, etc.. What, what do you start to measure? You know, at the start of a project. I mean, what? I mean, we've all got, you know, the search console's in place. Google analytics is in place. We might have hotjar installed. I mean, what what is it that you want to see? What sort of data do you want to see?

Yeah. The way that we do it is we create a test plan for each and every test that's specific to that test. And we look at what is the first metric or first change in the person's behavior that we'd expect to see. So if it's something on a home page and it's that button we just talked about, are people clicking on the button more than they used to? So that's sort of the first signal that the test is doing what it's supposed to. And then we have a series of metrics that fall in like a monitoring bucket where it's like, these are things that matter. So if they're clicking on the button and they're filling out the form, we're happy they're clicking on the button, and they're filling out the form less often than before. We're not happy. We're probably not going to roll out that change. And then we have a whole pile of metrics that we look at for understanding the story of what happened. So we may want to look at if we have the button on the home page, does that change whether or not somebody uses the navigation? So we'll collect data on things that could be impacted that we'll look at at the end. And then we'll collect data on what we think will be impacted to make sure the test is moving in the right direction. And then that's how we decide what's going to matter for the test.

Okay. Okay. Do you ever find yourself in a in a sort of head to head battle with, um, design people when it comes because, because sometimes with CRO, you know, you might want to try things that kind of maybe come up against the company guidelines, the style sheets, the brand guidelines, etc.. No, no, we can't possibly try that different color or try that different font or try that different layout or what, how do you come up against that? And if so, how do you deal with it?

Yeah, it's a good question. Um, we do a little bit and the way that we usually think about it is we'll first talk about like the theme or the behavioral change we're looking for. Like we're trying to make this information more prominent. This is the solution we think would make the information more prominent. And then their design team could say, here's a different way to make the information prominent. So we can look at a different styling of the test. But it's still that same goal of the information is prominent. Um, occasionally we'll get some pushback. Or the one thing that has come up over the years is this idea of like, what if we want a change that doesn't help conversion?

Mhm.

Should we test it? Right. And then I ask, well, why would we want. Why would we want that anyway? Like, what's the goal of having that piece of content if it's not a conversion? Is it an email sign up? Is it to get them to engage with that content? Like if it's any of those things, we can still measure it, but we shouldn't just say, let's like put a bunch of stuff on our site and don't we don't care if anyone looks at it or if it has no impact.

Okay.

I think that's one of the other things that's really interesting, right? Especially when you're working with people on CRO products projects is that, you know, they may come to the table with lots of ideas that you then have to kind of talk them down from. And I think that's the thing that we've definitely experienced, isn't it? When we said to a client, you know, we're going to, we're going to try changing these things. And they're like, oh, but what if we also do this? And oh, I've always thought this page could do with that. And like, you know, that that kind of process of talking people back down. Do you find that's quite common or.

People love to brainstorm like we're all ideas people. We all would be happy to like grab a beer and just talk about fun ways we could change our website and just brainstorm like, let's do a red button, let's do a blue button. What if the image looked like this? Um, I find it's really fun to do those brainstorm sessions. And I have found one, one of the ways that's really critical to being successful is, you know, that brainstorming is helpful for the team to be on board and to be excited about what we're doing. But before we brainstorm, we agree how we're going to decide what's going to matter or not. Sure. And then after we brainstorm, we're going to score all the ideas that came out in brainstorm against those criteria. So we've got this like very rigorous process on both ends. And then this very open ended brainstorm in the middle. And oftentimes some brand new ideas come out that score really well. And a lot of times there's a lot of ideas that maybe not aren't going to be very high scoring. And we'll just kind of keep in the backlog. If a problem surfaces where that's going to be a good solution. Um, I also find that when we can start with the problem statement or the opportunity statement, like here's what we're trying to accomplish, it can kind of box in that brainstorm a little bit better because sometimes it's a runaway train. We're talking about the product page. And then someone's like, I have this idea for checkout. And then someone's like, I have an idea for a new app. And then someone else is like, let's start a new business. And suddenly like, it's all blown up and you're no longer working on the problem. So having some clear boundaries of what the brainstorm is about also helps before you jump into it. Definitely. It's not to say that when we present ideas that other ideas don't get piled in. And so that's always just something to negotiate of. Like what amount can we really learn, and how important is it to pull apart the elements versus to have a big change in one test?

Okay. And I'm going to ask you the opposite of this question. So bear that in mind. But what sort of companies do you love working with? You know, you get an enquiry comes in, we all we're all agency owners and we love it when enquiries come in. And sometimes enquiry comes in and we go into our HubSpot portal and we go, um, and other times we go, whoa, so what makes you go, whoa!

Because I love questions. My favorite thing is when I have a prospect who comes in with questions. Oh, yeah. It's like my favorite thing when they're like, I've got one hundred things. I want to pick your brain about how you think about this and how you do that, because curiosity is one of my core values, something that we as Experiment Zone really care about. And so when we find clients that are as curious as we are, we're happy to take on the work that goes with getting the answer. But I love the curiosity. It gets me super excited to work with them.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And any particular types of business, professional services, people that sell products, uh, B2B or is it just really as long as they're excited.

Over the years? Yeah, we've been in business for five years. And at the beginning it was mostly DTC companies. Um, we did almost exclusively e-commerce, um, like products at that time, but we've really expanded to being more fifty fifty with B2B over the last two years. And so I'd say it's less about industry or what they're doing. Um, we do things from like specialised women's yoga pants to like rentals of equipment for construction sites to like things related to your pets. And so we have like this pretty wide array of things that we can now support and have experience with. Um, for me, it's less about the specific industry and more about how much there is to uncover in it. So to me, the more unique the product is, the more interesting or challenging, it's going to be to make sure we're speaking the right message to the company. So I think in my space, it seems like we have these huge companies like Amazon that sell everything to everyone, and it's a lot more fun to sell something really specific that solves a really burning problem for like a subset of people. Sure. So that's probably another angle that I find really interesting.

Okay. I mean, do you think it's fair to say that the the area of conversion rate optimisation was established and cut its teeth in the e-commerce world? Was it primarily about getting people to click more buttons, buy more stuff? And now it's evolved and it's moved out more into the B2B space and other spaces.

I think that's a really interesting observation. Yeah, I think that's probably true for the industry at large is that there's a lot of data, there's a lot of urgency to just move the needle a tiny bit when you're every like, it's directly tied to revenue. So you're highly motivated to invest in that dollar for dollar. I know exactly how much more money I made because of this a B test versus if it's B to B, there's a longer sales cycle and you may have to consider what's the value of the lead as opposed to like what's that contract over time. And so the math is just a little more fuzzy on that versus the like clear cut a B testing and e-commerce.

Okay. Got you. Well, you were breathing in such a way that I imagined you had a burning question. He was.

Like.

Let me in. Let me in. Go on.

You're not very fair to me. Do you know that? You're not.

I'm acknowledging you wanted to ask a question.

Uh, yeah, but now I've forgotten it.

Because I can carry on. I can carry on. Because what I said I would do was also I would ask. So when I don't know what CRM you use, but when when an enquiry pops in, what, what are the words in there that are going to be like, oh, heart sink moment. We thought we had a good enquiry, but this has got problem written all over it. I, I, I genuinely can't imagine in, in the CRO space what a problem, potential problem enquiry, an enquiry that looks like it could be like wading through treacle. Any insight on that?

Yeah, I think there's often sort of a mix up of the terminology. So if you get someone who's like, I need more conversions and we don't have very much traffic. Yeah, it's a different solution than what we offer to drive more traffic. Sometimes that works out and they're looking for both. And they're like, this is our year of growth. We want to invest across the board. But it does kind of give you that like, oh, I've got to really double check and make sure that this is a company that's prepared to take on conversion rate optimisation, or this is a company, we need to get them connected to the right people to help grow the traffic so that we can step in and help out down the road.

So that led beautifully onto a question I had written down was how, if at all, can see our or play a part with a new website, a website that's not getting traffic. I mean, the obvious one is you could use CRO as part of a paid search campaign because you want to get real value out of that because you're paying for every click. But is there anything you can do as a CRO expert or an organisation who specialises in CRO? When somebody comes along with a brand new website.

I think the answer is going to depend on if the traffic is like zero or if you're getting some traffic. Yeah. So in the case of zero traffic, like we haven't even published yet, we've got this new site. We want to make sure it operates well out of the box. Yeah. We will not be able to do a B testing in a live environment because you have no traffic.

But could you. Sorry to interrupt, but could you could you actually, at that early stage put things in place. So you start testing right from the get go. So that very first person that visits the website is going to be part of an experiment sort of thing.

You could and it would be there's a couple of factors to it, but I think to if you if you weren't ready to do that, the simplest thing, the most profitable thing you could do is to have an audit done by a team of experts. So that is something that we do is to say, let's do a project, get you like set on the right path before you get going. And in the case of a redesign, though, that's I think that's kind of the most common scenario is like, we've got a website, it's got traffic. We're anticipating this brand new site. Yeah. How do we like how is CRO come into play now? Or does it come into play once the new site is live? And time and again we are contacted after the new site goes live and.

Things.

Don't go very well. And then we have to kind of help them pick up the pieces. And it's a really hard environment for their team. Yeah, everyone's under a lot of pressure and teams that are really successful with redesigns will test into the redesign. So they'll take the existing site and they'll say, these are some questions we have about our redesign decisions. Let's test those elements in a live environment. And then the other thing they can do is actually test the two pages. If we have two home pages that are built, we could actually test them against each other. And so kind of depending on how different the designs are visually. If it's speaking the same brand language, then we can test them against each other. So I think really smart teams are saying, let's measure into these changes. Um, we're working with a company that's taking nine months to roll out changes, but is considering very carefully at every step of the way. Are we making the right design choices into that redesign? So by the end of the year, it'll be a brand new website, but every decision will be backed by data.

Yeah. I mean, as an agency, we've often, as you quite rightly said, picked up the pieces now, not in a CRM context, but in a, hey, you know, we've got our new website live. Our traffic's falling off a cliff. We don't know what happened. Yeah. Did you did you do the three hundred and one exercise? Um, what? And it's like, you know, it's like, okay. And then you're in a rescue mode. And we, we've often referred to ourselves as a rescue agency. You must be something you say to yourself. If people have kind of thrown the baby out with the bathwater, and I can see how CRO in a, in a website redesign project could be just such a fantastic investment. It really could, because you can gather so much data before you make a single change. You know, it's so it's so, so powerful.

Yeah, I'd agree. And I think coming from the product world before, I've kind of moved more into this marketing space, we did so much research. And in fact, the problem in the product world, in my opinion, is that we don't measure after we're spending so much time making sure we got it right before launching, and then we just kind of throw it out and hope it worked and just kind of forget about it once it was out in the world. And so coming from that world, it's incredible to me that you would spend so much time and money with this new website or this new experience, but not invest in usability research and a B testing and things that will make sure it's successful.

Okay. I guess there's like a time thing, maybe. Certainly just thinking about conversations I've had with people about CRO where, you know, people are kind of anxious that they don't just want to test forever that, you know, you could keep testing things until you're, you know, kind of sick of it. And the website will never go live. And I mean, I guess that's a good question, though, isn't it? I mean, do you think Crow projects have a kind of finite lifespan, or is it just a kind of you should be testing until you're finished with your business sort of thing, really.

As I mentioned earlier, I've yet to run a usability study and not fun problems or opportunities. So to me, it's done when you can pass usability study, like if customers can find everything they're looking for and you're converting, you're not going to convert one hundred percent, but you're converting one hundred percent of people who are ready to purchase today, then it's done. And so I would challenge anyone who thinks their site is done to come to me, and I'll do a usability study and I'll show some more opportunity. And if I don't, I'll give you your money back. Yeah, like that would be like I should give that guarantee.

I mean, as an agency, do you work with people on a return basis or on a project basis?

Typically mostly retained. We do just form long term relationships where we are the conversion team, the conversion strategy team. Um, in the case of a site that, you know, is a smaller traffic site, we'll do those audits and reviews. We also do partner with companies that are much larger and have a robust testing team, but are looking for that outside perspective to say, what should our testing roadmap be for this next quarter, this next year? And so we'll do usability research and a B testing, um, and analysis for them. So we can say here's what you should be focused on. And then we'll let them run with it. So we kind of work in a couple different scenarios.

Okay. I mean you're probably familiar with the the concept of growth growth driven design in the web space. I mean, it seems to me that GDP growth driven design, which we're huge fans of, that goes hand in hand with CRO. I mean, GDP by definition is actually trying to figure out what works and what doesn't work and doing more of the good stuff and actually spending money, getting conversions, etc. even if it's slightly a different discipline to pure GDP and CRO are different.

But connected.

Yeah. They're like a Venn diagram with a lot of overlap depending on who's defining it.

Yeah that's right.

So yeah, I was just gonna say, actually, speaking of, one of the things that you mentioned earlier was this whole whole kind of idea of like a B testing. One of the things that I know a lot of people here listening will be very curious about is what other kind of methods of testing things are there on websites, because you can get really into the weeds with this stuff. Like if you Google like how to get started with CRO, it's all like a B testing, multivariate testing. Like, you know, hundreds of different buzzwords. I just wondered if you could maybe kind of talk through the, the process of kind of identifying the right tests and knowing kind of how to go about testing.

Yeah. In terms of methodology, um, I think my answer, the theme today might just be like ask the right questions. So if, um, if you, if you aren't asking the right question, you're going to say, let's do a multivariate test of like every color possible button. Yeah. With position, with font styling or something like you'll do something that's very complicated where the performance of the different variants or the different versions of the site will be pretty close together because it's not a big change, and it's unlikely you'll have enough traffic to see anything significant for a very long time. So I think one of the really critical things in answering method is how much traffic do we have? Like, can we get a strong enough signal based on what the question we're asking to answer that question. So if we're a smaller traffic site, we're going to make much bolder changes. We will be less confident about what part of that change impacted it. But we'll at least say this is a better experience than this. Here's maybe why that worked, but we're not certain because we've bucketed things together. And then for really mature companies, if you think about Amazon, they're running hundreds and hundreds of tests live every single day. They know exactly if this is up one pixel or this is over one pixel, like they've got the traffic data and the power to do that traffic to invest in that. So I think the mistake a lot of people make is they say, I want to be Amazon and they try to repeat that, but then they have just a fraction of the traffic.

Yeah.

When you can be asking similar questions, but your solution is going to need to be different than something a big company can test.

Yeah. I mean, the good thing is the tools that you use for doing this stuff will usually say, look, there's not enough traffic. We can't be conclusive. Don't change anything based on this. It's just kind of too flimsy. Um, you mentioned the word bold. And certainly when I've been looking at CRO, reading about CRO, listening to podcasts and things, you know, do you, are you sometimes really bold with, with, with the kind of things you'll experiment with? Just like out there? Just let's, let's take you way out of your comfort zone and try something that's completely different.

Um, I'm smiling and laughing to myself because I think bold in this context is really different than what bold might mean in any other industry. So I think often what we're trying to do is say, we can't test ten things at once. We should pull them apart. So we really have a true learning, like did this thing. These types of changes impact this type of thing. Um, so one of the things that comes up is like, like, would it be bold to have a brand new landing page in my book? It's pretty bold to just design something brand new without any signal of whether the messaging works or the design works or the layout works. But teams do it all the time. So when I say bold, I mean like, let's reorganise the hierarchy on the website. Let's like rearrange a bunch of stuff or try new images, like something that's where a lot of changes, a lot of changes are getting grouped together. Yeah. And we may not be able to know what change mattered. Um, have I done things more bold than that? I would say the way that comes up is often a lot of our clients are getting bombarded with new technology all the time. Try this new widget, do this thing with huge promises of conversion improvements. And more often than not, those do not hold up because they're not doing true a B testing. And so it's actually the opposite of bold where we're saying, let's be certain that this had the impact we want. Because what we do see is that sometimes those things are distracting and they hurt your conversion rate, despite the promise of it being bold, being helpful, being useful. And so when we think about really bold interruptions in the experience, we're often the voice of saying, let's just be sure before we roll that out.

Okay, okay. You did touch on messaging and something you were saying, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that messaging is one of the areas in CRO where you can be quite bold. You know, I this is just a hunch. We tried it on our own site. We tried two very different hero texts on our home page. And it was the a B test was so conclusive it was ridiculous. And the one that one was that. I think originally it was something like we help businesses thrive online. And then we went to we, we help businesses that want to grow or grow faster or something like that. I can't remember exactly what it was very down or very. And it was the engagement level went off the scale. And I think messaging is an area where you can't afford to run some experiments and be quite bold and maybe take yourself slightly out of your comfort zone. Do you agree or disagree?

I'm really glad that you think that's bold too. So I'm with you. We're on the same page on what bold is.

Okay, phew.

Bold. Bold might mean controversial, right? It might mean this makes our team a little bit uncomfortable, because it's a little outside of what our brand team would normally write down. Or this is a little different than how we would say it otherwise because we think it won't work. But by putting it out there, we can know for sure what happens and what people do to respond to it. I think the other place I feel really bold that, um, I don't know if they'd interpret if clients think of this as bold, but we just take out huge parts of the site. We're like, like we look at a page and we're like, we're going to take out a whole bunch of this page and see what happens. Because oftentimes we're just distracting our customers by giving them too many shiny things to look at, too many paragraphs to read. And simplicity can win out. That can be bold in the sense of there's often some political dynamics at the company where somebody made that content there for a reason. And so we're being bold and saying, let's just make sure that's really additive instead of distracting.

Yeah.

Got you. I mean, do you have conversations with customers that are quite, uh, I mean, one of our, one of our, um, one of our, um, things that we work to is that we, we will challenge customers, we will do what we think is the right thing for them, even if it's potentially not adversarial. But, you know, it's kind of if we, if we think it's right, you know, then we'll suggest it or we'll, you know, we'll kind of push for it. Um, so what you were talking about then about people pushing back and I mean, have you had to sort of say to people, look, who's your website for? Is it for is it for the CEO and his wife? Or is it for your customers because you want the website to generate business for you?

My approach might not be as direct as that.

See, I would that's why I.

Run.

A small agency.

But I definitely make the case. You know, our job is to be to be the strategist for the conversion strategy. And so if we're not standing up for our ideas, then we're failing at our job. Uh, my, my tendency is to be like, if, if there's controversy, let's get more signal on that, whether that's additional interviews or a quick survey we could drop on the site, or is it that the signal is the test itself? Let's run it on less traffic and see how it does. So fewer people will see it, but we'll get some data back. And so for me, it's like pushing rather than saying like, we just cannot do it. It's the question of like, why can't we do it? Could we do some version of it to understand what the impact could be before making a bigger, bolder change?

Okay. Got you. Alex. No.

Yeah. No, I was thinking that's a really sensible approach, actually. I might steal that.

That's not to say that there's sometimes we do have a bucket of like, you know, CEO will not allow us to do this. Right. Why is the CEO not allowing us to do that? We're going to keep pushing and understanding that and we won't drop it, but it may not just be the next test up on the roadmap.

I guess what we're saying is, like we're saying to customers, is your website a vanity project or a business growth asset? You know, what do you want it to be? Kind of thing. I'm thinking about, um, some of the people who listen to this podcast would not be able to, um, be in a position to hire us. Probably not in a position to hire you. What are some baby steps that really small businesses can take? I mean, any advice for small business owners who really need to kind of look at a DIY approach to this stuff?

Yeah, I think one of the things, the exercise I like to take companies through, especially if they're going to do this on their own, is to look at the most important pages. So let's say your home page or any key landing pages. And before you scroll, can your website answer three questions?

Okay.

What your website is about, who the website is for and why they should stay with you or continue to work with you. And again, kind of going back to that, I've always found usability problems. I have yet to find a website that nails all three of those consistently on all their landing pages. Um, you know, some companies who are doing testing or have a really strong digital team have kind of conquered that in most pages, but that's a really great opportunity if you're just not sure if your site's converting, can it do better? Go ask those three questions. Yeah. The second exercise I love to do for sites is called the squint test. It's a very official name. And you take any page where you have to have a conversion event. So if you're selling a product and you have a product page, if you sit back and you squint your eyes, what jumps out at you? Is it the CTA? In a lot of the times it's not. And so if you apply those two tests, everyone your site, your conversion rate will go up and it will not cost you very much money to get that. And then once your conversion rate goes up, you can afford us. So come find us.

Yeah, that's, that is so interesting because I've often said because I'm not a designer, but I've said to the design guys in our organisation, sometimes I'll look at a design that they're working on and I'll put it on my laptop and I'll stand way back. And I don't know why I do it. It's like I want I want it to look great even when I can't really read it. Is it kind of flowing and working and is it is it kind of oozing quality or whatever it is? I can't really quantify it, but it's I think that's just a fantastic observation, this idea of like, what is it that, you know, is the thing you want them to do? Obvious kind.

Of thing? Yeah. And we have, we do. So I do talk about how a lot of human behavior isn't predictable, but there are some tendencies that we do have. So at least in like Western countries where we're reading left to right, we tend to follow the screen in a Z pattern. So something in the top left corner, something in the bottom right corner, um, there's just some, some heuristics that you can start with to say, am I helping this? Like, are we, am I easing the ability for someone to like get into the content and to get into what I'm offering? Um, I guess the other, the, the other one that I notice a lot is almost every template out there has a homepage hero where the image is the full screen. That just seems to be the design we've all settled on. Yeah. And time and again we shorten that image and we see, hey, people engage with the page because they realise they can scroll.

There's more content. Yeah.

And like there's something below. Let's keep going. So if you have a full height image, I would recommend setting up a tool that does click tracking. So tools like Crazyegg or Hotjar are low cost. They're great for companies just kind of getting their feet wet with CRO. And if your key pages lead to people not scrolling. Then ask them questions like, can they really see the content that's peeking out from underneath? To know that they can scroll? Sure. So that's probably like my level two of DIY CRO.

Okay. I'm going to ask you a question about we get people coming to us with, with, with websites maybe looking for redesign or looking for help. And they've got the carousels. They used to be all the rage and the research seems to suggest like they're just a bad idea. People don't wait for them to scroll. They're not interested. They haven't got time. You're assuming that they, that they, they could care less sort of thing or that they could care or they do care. We actually quite like background videos because we think they tell a good story and are engaging. AM I what's from a CRO experts point of view? Because you'll have tested these things. What have you found? Have you found anything? Because these things are really in vogue at the moment, like the whole idea of a background video.

They are, um, for the carousel. Um, that's a really fun one because that's kind of like it's like it was in vogue and then everyone kind of turned against it. And what I'm building a mental model of, of generally how that works is if the carousel is just like little ad little billboards, here's our special chop, this new category and it's scrolling by. You often see this in the very top of the home page. People aren't going to wait for it. They actually interact with the hero less if it has multiple options than if there's a single one that they can just act on. My theory for that is that it feels like an ad because everyone else is using it like an ad. And then also, if it's scrolling automatically, it's not like it's moving. And so you're, you're like, oh, they don't really want me to pay attention to that first one. So they kind of like lose track of it too, because you haven't encouraged them to stick with it. Where carousels do work well is when you're surfacing specific products. Mhm. So product carousels, especially like early up in the funnel on home pages, on category like educational pages where you can showcase the products. People come to your site to buy stuff. Yeah, right. They're there because they're like, I want a pair of shoes. So as soon as you start showing the shoes, it's really exciting and people start interacting with it because oftentimes companies are like, home page, don't show any shoes or just have behavioral, like, you know, photographs, lifestyle images. Then they have to take like two steps before they can see the product. So carousels where you surface the product and you're like, hey, look, check it out, check it out. It kind of helps them jump right to the step of like, oh, I want to, I like that pair. I like that styling. Let me see if you have it in my size.

Yep. And the videos.

Oh the videos. Good question. Um, I think videos is one of those things. Um, we've seen it be helpful on product pages in particular when it's like showcasing how the product moves or how it works. Um, on home pages, it can be hit or miss. And I, my theory is that if it's, if it's providing actionable information, it's helpful, but it needs to be reinforced with some content for people who don't watch so they don't miss it out, miss out on it. If it's to kind of give the aesthetic kind of feel of it, the problem that can surface is if it slows down the page speed, we see conversion drop offs. But if you've got like a good stack, it moves fast and it's really speaking clearly to your audience, then it's a good choice. Yeah. So oftentimes it's just about refining it as opposed to saying like video, bad video, good. Yeah, it's a little bit more nuanced to answer that.

Yeah. I guess we've used it in a, in a context of telling a good story very quickly, establishing credibility, establishing scale. I guess where it might be less effective is if it's just a nice video of somebody diving, scuba diving on a coral island, which has got nothing to do with the product just because it's a great video. That's when, as in a B2B world, which is primarily where we live, it's always about trying to tell a story that's relevant, if you like, to what the company does and trying to get that lots of information across very quickly.

And I do think when we were talking about demographic differences earlier, I think an important segment a lot of companies don't think about is there is a subset of people who just want to watch. They just want to sit back and like, learn about your product. They want to see it on the runway. They want to like listen to your story. And then there's a subset of people that will never hit play who are just scanning for the keyword that they are, they're looking for and trying to get as fast of a path. And so the video gets in their way. So I think it's really critical. Companies support both of those types of people so that they can get what they need in the format that works for them. It's just like how teachers need to think about different ways that students can learn. We have to think about as designers or as website creators, how does our audience interact with our site and how can we support all those different types of preferences?

Mhm. Just putting you slightly on the spot. um, you've run probably thousands of experiments. What what's what was the most surprising result? The thing that happened that you just didn't expect with the CRO experiment, anything at all there?

Oh, of course, there's one that comes to mind immediately from this one's old now. It's like six years old. Um, but we ran a test to understand if we could get more email signups, and we didn't. The client's desire was that it wasn't kind of an in-your-face email sign up, but more subtle. They wanted it to be available throughout the site experience. So what we decided was to there's like a pencil banner, that thin banner at the very top of the page that's above the navigation. They wanted to show an email sign up form there. However, that's where they had free shipping and returns, which is a really critical piece of information like what I talked about earlier. So we didn't want to take that message away. So we could have had them side by side, but we decided it was a more interesting experience to have it rotate. So not within the page because we didn't want it to be kind of like a scrolling, distracting thing. But on even pages, it was free shipping in return. It was on on odd pages. It was free shipping and returns on even pages. It was the form. So customers, as they move through the site, had like slightly different information depending on what they were doing. Mhm. And it was very successful in driving emails, like I think a seventy percent lift, so highly incentivising for people, but it drove site wide orders up eleven percent.

Mhm. Interesting.

Like, not at all what we had on our radar. We were not trying to change orders. That content was already there. And so the best understanding of what we think happened is just because that piece of information changed. It drew more people's attention to that free shipping and returns message, which we already knew was important. But we were able to find a design choice that made it even more visible and therefore have a huge impact to revenue. Yep. So still surprised. I still sit back and go, wow, I don't know how we came across that. Yeah.

Well, obviously made you guys appear to be rock stars in the in the eye, in the eyes of the customer on that one. I would, I would imagine. Um, okay. Just by way of, um, kind of summing up just to kind of think about, we've talked about a lot of things. It's been fascinating. I've enjoyed it so much. What, what should people and I'm not talking about the detail. What should people expect typically from an investment in CRO. I mean and you know all right. Do David. They should expect to sell more stuff, get more enquiries. You know, I mean is it is it just that. Is it or is it more is it more customer insights? Is it you know, it's a big investment. It's this stuff isn't cheap. It's it's people with brains the size of planets trying to solve big problems. And it's not cheap. So what should we expect from it?

I think from an ROI perspective. It multiplies all of the spend, the ROI of all the spend you're doing on marketing.

Love that. Yeah.

So if you take ten percent of your current marketing spend, let's say the bottom ten percent and put it to CRO, you're going to up the impact of the ninety percent you're already doing. Yeah. So like it's a bottom bottom line issue. If you're not doing CRO and you're spending money getting people to your site, you are under-investing in making sure that ad performance and those investments to get people there perform. Yep. On the longer term scale, it helps instill a curiosity culture or an experimentation culture for your team. And they have a place to send those ideas and to learn from their ideas. So they might feel really passionately about blue versus red, and they'll learn that it's not what matters. And so we can help your team know what kinds of things really impact their customers, because lots of small things have huge impacts and then lots of big things really don't matter. And so like, it's really hard to predict. And so testing will give you that sort of clarity of what works and what doesn't. And then as you, as you said, um, if you think you know, your customer now CRO is the way to get to know them better. It's the way to know what makes them tick. It's the way to know which little snippet of phrasing is going to help them respond to it. And if you learn that on your homepage, you can apply it to your emails, you can apply it to your ads. And so you can take those learnings and apply it to your whole organisation. So it's short term revenue gain long term. Tons of learnings and just being having a better experience with your customers, having happier customers.

The idea of it being a marketing spend multiplier is that that resonates. That's, that's like a really clear takeaway, isn't it? It's so good. That's so good. Um, okay. AJ, how can people get in touch with, with you guys, um, to maybe talk about conversion rate optimisation if they're looking for a consultancy to help them with getting more bang for their website book.

Yeah. You can find us at experiment dot com. We also have a free CRO report card. So if you're curious about how your site is measuring up, we've got a link in our navigation, so check it out. If you're not sure if it's time to engage with another with an agency in particular, but you're curious how you're measuring up, check out that free guide again at experiment dot com.

Great stuff. And we'll put some links in the in the show notes redevolution.com/digital-marketing-from-the-coalface about that. Um, this has been an eye opener. Fantastic. Is there anything that you expected us to, to ask you and we haven't asked you or has it been. Have we kind of covered off most of the things that you wanted to talk about?

I think we found lots of different avenues of conversation. This is a lot of fun. Thank you.

That's the way it goes with from the coalface. Um, okay. It's been fantastic. Alex, anything else that you wanted to ask before we finished up?

Uh, I had one very geeky question.

No.

Go on. I'm going to struggle to articulate this now because I'm under pressure. But yeah, so one of the things you mentioned earlier, just to pick up on again, was this whole idea of like best practices. Obviously you guys are right on the cutting edge of this. Um, I know when we're doing CRO work, I'm often kind of led by research that other people have published online. And I'll look at things and people say like, you know, definitely blue makes people more trusting. It's fifty percent better for your website. And I'll think, okay, we have to test that. Do you think there's any real value in being led by other people's kind of best practices, or should you just test everything?

I love that question. Um, I think my answer is it's another signal. So using benchmarks, best practices, um, there's a lot of people who are trying to measure things to say like this is exactly how it should be and it shouldn't be enough to follow that, but it's a good starting place. So if you were to just like scribble on a piece of paper and make up a website design, it's not going to perform as well as one that follows conventions that other people are more used to and more comfortable with. So to me, it falls in line with that. It's a convention. It's a good starting place. It may signal we are a little bit more confident about that choice. So let's test something else for now. But until you know, if we start seeing problems surface in a usability study or in our analytics, and we can't quite crack like what's causing that, we should test the assumptions. So my, my way of thinking about it is like that would fall under the bucket of an assumption that has some signal. We haven't proven it or not for our audience, but we've got a good starting place and we could focus somewhere else to start.

Mhm. Yeah. I love.

That. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. I love that question as well. It was great. Thank you. AJ thanks very much. If you're listening and want to come on the show, we'd love to hear from you. You can go redevolution.com/digital-marketing-from-the-coalface or redevolution.com and get in touch. In the meantime, if you have any questions or you just want us to answer them, we're happy to do that. AJ, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Thanks, guys. It's a lot of fun.