Do you think that compounds the problem, that there are people out there who are still mixing it? Support web design development into the same bucket and saying, yeah, we do all that.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that is a prime example. So if you look at a small business that's offering web IT support the whole lot. How focused are they really going to be on your business? They're just basically doing nobody any favours at all. Do what you do best, earn your crust, earn your money, doing what you do best. If you do find yourself in a situation where you simply can't build up the trust of the customer, you've got to let that customer go. And that's where like, you know, be an expert, use an expert. So you'd be good at what you can do to pay somebody else to do what they're doing well. Digital marketing for me is embedded in business growth. And you've grown a business. You know, I've grown a business. So I think there's a lot of stuff that we could share that would be useful.
Okay, so I don't know what number podcast is this? Because haven't decided what order to put them in yet. So it might be podcast three. It might be podcast seven. No idea at all. But anyway, I'm here with Bruce Skinner, um, from Alto or itsalto.com. Bruce, tell us about Alto.
Oh, well, Alto, um, we are what's known in the industry as a managed services and security provider, which doesn't really mean much to, to most people.
We hate jargon on these podcasts. What does it really mean?
Well, we're, we're a company. We're an IT company. So I often said in the early days, you know, if it beeps and flashes in the office, we'll, we'll either look after it or make sure it works.
Coffee machine. You fix coffee machines.
Well, we didn't go as far as that, but, you know, um, I guess we can, uh, make sure if all these, these connected coffee machines, if they're connected to the internet, we can make sure they, the firewalls working right. And.
Yeah. That's right. Well, you might wanna look at our printer before we go because I took great delight. I was down in Cornwall recently. I was in the motorhome lying in bed printing things on the office here in Aboyne. Excellent. It's just like. Yeah. And that's on a printer that costs like one hundred quid. But yeah, somebody else said that to me. He's like, yeah, well, you've probably just opened your entire network up to something. Not that there's much on our network because everything's in the cloud, but is that possible?
Yeah. I mean, with, with how you've set it up, it's probably not. The most likely scenario is that HP have some kind of like printing service that you signed up for.
Yeah. HP. Smart print or something. Yeah. Even orders its own ink. It knows when it needs ink and it just orders it and it arrives.
Yeah, yeah. That's a, that's a great, a great, uh, a great business model for HP.
Anyway, it's really good. It's only like two hundred quid a time. It's great bargain.
Yeah. We're in the wrong industry.
I know, I think we are. Yeah. I mean speaking about industries, industry, wrong industry or everything else, the main thrust of our chat today, and it was a subject that you suggested, which I thought was brilliant, was like the crossover and perceived crossover of web companies, digital marketing companies like us and IT support manage software service, managed security. I'll say it again.
Managed services and security provider. It's just.
So good.
Isn't it? Isn't it isn't.
He told me like two minutes ago and I couldn't remember it immediately. And you're a client of ours.
It doesn't even trip. It doesn't really trip off the tongue MSP but you know, it's.
You look after people's tech so that they don't even have to think about it. Yes, essentially.
Yeah. That's the thing. I mean, it's peace of mind for them that, uh, you know, they're wanting to do their work, uh, which invariably isn't it. Uh, so we're there to make sure that everything does happen. You know, we're, we're the conduit to them actually being able to work. So. Absolutely.
I mean, so the crossover, what we're really going to talk about today is, um, as a web company and it happened to us this morning, somebody got in touch to say, oh, our emails not working properly. Can you help us with our email? Um, and that's not what we do. Um, we've kind of helped people with email, just a very simple solution, but it's guys, that's the sort of thing that you would do. But equally people come to you and say you're an IT company. Can you build us a website?
Yeah. I mean, that is definitely the case. It's, um, it's, I think it starts really, um, with new businesses, certainly it's with the domain name. Somebody registers it either it's the web guy or the IT guy, or it's the business owner that does it. Um, and then whoever kind of touches that first is really assumed as the, the IT guy. Um, and then invariably, if you, if you work with a smaller provider, somebody not like yourself, they will just maybe try and turn their hand to do anything. Yeah. Uh, and that doesn't do either of our industries any favours. We, uh, you know, we see that quite, quite often where.
Yeah, just just picking up on something you said there around about the IT department used to sort of send a shiver down my spine when we used to go and speak to new prospects and say, well, yeah, we'd like you to come in and talk to us about our website and stuff. And, uh, they would say, uh, you know, so and so will be there. So-and-so will be there. And our head of it will be there. And I used to think, fine, why are they there? What? You know, it's nothing to do with it. It's a communications medium. It's a marketing tool. It's a lot of things which got nothing to do with it. So we hear it, hear it less now, but it's not entirely the case that IT departments are not involved.
Yeah. And it is it is quite an interesting thing. It just goes to show that the the perception is still out there and maybe not so much these days, but it is still out there that, you know, um, web is, uh, an IT thing. Yeah. Uh, when it's, it's simply not, it's more about marketing and, um, you know, well, do you know what? I'm not even going to tell you what it's about because that's your. I wish you would object.
Somebody should, honestly.
But no, I mean, you know, you get you get under the bonnet of anything, you know, our experience, um, with, uh, with web developers and web designers. There you go. There's two separate subjects for a start. I know. Um, and then, uh, and people don't tend to appreciate that. Um, but yeah, it's like, oh, you're an IT guy. Could you do our website and, you know, there are packages out there. These, um, like Build-A-Bear type. Yeah, like.
Wix and Squarespace and these.
Things, they only get you so far though, I believe. Yeah. You can, maybe you could maybe argue different, but.
I mean, no, I mean, they take away actually it's interesting because what they do those platforms is they take away the need to buy hosting and manage hosting and worry about backups and worry about security and all that, because it's a turnkey solution. And they basically just say, you know, there's the platform, log in, upload your pictures and your words, and there you go, you've got a website. And yeah, they do serve a really good purpose, I think.
Yeah. And I think from that point of view, they serve a great purpose in the early years of a business because it doesn't tend to be your website. If you're, if you're traditional, sort of like, um, people type business and not an online business, then typically, um, it serves you well because all you need is a brochure in, in on the web or in the sky, whatever, in the cloud. Um, but yeah, when you get to the point where, you know, you've you've built up a few stuff and you're like, right, we really need to get prospects in the door. Like you've no chance if you're using a self builder type thing, as far as I'm aware.
Anyway, unless you hire somebody who knows what they're doing. I mean, if you hire a marketer, somebody who knows about content and search and all that, all that kind of stuff, you've got them in house and, you know, then you've got all the joys of employing somebody who does something that you don't understand. Yeah.
Just hire an IT guy. Don't hire an IT guy to do it. Make sure it's a web developer.
That's right. So yeah, so there is definitely a perception that that you guys, because you're in it do, um, websites and a perception that because we're involved in web that I mean, I get, I still get asked a lot by people, um, oh, you know, could you look at my computer for me? Could you fix I've got a virus. Could you look at it for me? And I have no clue anymore. I used to sort of dabble, but I haven't a clue anymore. But I'm still thought of as an IT person. Uh, until you have a conversation and people are right. Okay? That's what you do. I didn't really get it.
Yeah. And that's the sort of the thrust of the conversation is it's about positioning. And if you don't position yourself, then the market will position you. Yeah. Um, and, uh, you know.
You go to Harvard. I mean, that's genius. I mean, where did you get that from?
Oh, it was, uh, just from a project that we did on positioning. Would you believe.
Okay, I like it. Yeah.
So, uh, so that's the thing. But that's a key. That's a key thing for, for any business, you know, um, if you don't position yourself, um, as web developer or web designer, premium business, um, you know, stack em high, sell em cheap business. If you don't position yourself, then the market will just choose a position for you, which is, which is fatal. Okay? Because you're gonna end up being driven by the market rather than driven by yourself and your desires and your wants and, and you know, where you want to go and what you want to enjoy.
Do you think that that play that comes in when you start talking about price as well, do you think? I mean, you have a price point, you'll have a size of business. That's that's the right size of business that you can help them because they'll have the budget to pay you what you need to do, what you do. Yeah. And you think that comes into play there as well.
Prices are really funny subject. Um, and I think it, it doesn't become a subject when people see the perceived value in the services that you offer. Yeah. Um, and yeah, I think price can be used to filter out, uh, and, um, get, get people to the right person to provide the services. Yeah, definitely. Um, but for me, like, you know, gonna gonna mention it early, the value, the value word value is.
You're gonna say value proposition.
No, I wasn't gonna go as far as that. You propositioning me?
Well, there's only two of us here, so it was worth a try.
But, uh. But yeah, I wasn't going to go as far as that, but yeah. Um, but yeah, value for me, it's about the value and I think moving, moving into the sort of the thing about value, it's about recognising your value and where, where to stop and where to start. So for, for instance, if I get an enquiry, uh, for, um, a web design or a web developer, that's immediately, you know, um, for that's a referral, that's a referral to a trusted partner, somebody like yourself that we know can do the job. Um, we're certainly not going to turn our hand to it, not even if we're, um, you know, having a down month or a lower month where we're not earning as much and we think, oh, we could turn a hand to that to make a few quid. No chance. Yeah. Like that's just taking you away from your focus.
It's interesting because I, I often, um, you know, I find myself sometimes looking at websites of either an enquiry came in and I'm looking at a website or there might be something that we're doing for a customer and the customer's, um, service provider has maybe got involved in the conversation or go and check them out. And you know, you you will still, I think, see some, um well, whether their IT support, uh, managed service providers or not, they claim.
To even IT departments.
Yeah. But they'll, they'll actually say on their website, we can also do your web stuff, you know, I mean, you still see that. And, you know, I look at it, I say, oh, bless them, you know, I just, I just, I don't see them as a threat to us because somebody that's going to spend, you know, thirty bob on a fried fish with a, with an IT support company ain't our ideal customer anyway. No, but I think maybe. Do you think that compounds the problem that there are people out there who are still mixing it, support web design development into the same bucket and saying, yeah, we do all that.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that that is that is a prime, prime prime example. And, um, when I see, um, businesses out there that offer, um, managed services, it support, um, or web design or web development, if they start to mention the broader subjects, they're just basically doing nobody any favours at all. Uh, you know, it's, uh, it's just being the, uh, the sort of all, uh, all things to every, every person, you know. It's a, it's a really, um, I mean, the thing that I always think about is, um, uh, multitasking or switching quickly between tasks or getting interrupted in a day. Um, you know, if the phone goes in your, um, on task and you have to answer it, it can take you ten or fifteen minutes to get back on that task. So if you look at a small business that's offering web IT support the whole lot, like how focused are they really going to be on your business? Um, you really, really need to be to be careful. So I would always steer clear unless that business is, you know, um, Red Alto Evolution, you know, it has the actually, it has focused departments within it that are actually offering that, um, I would always steer clear of, of, um, you know, businesses that, that offer so many different services and IT support and websites in one. Yeah, I'm always a bit skeptical about that. Yeah.
Um, so I mean, you know, podcasts are not sales pitches, but what, what is the sweet spot for you guys? I mean, what is the ideal customer for you guys? And what do you tend to do for those ideal customers?
Um.
Obviously not websites because that's what we're talking about, about why you don't do websites for them. But you know, just briefly.
The whole kind of productivity, peace of mind platform for growth, uh, customers who are looking for that, uh, they basically want to focus on their, their business. Yeah. So it tends to be businesses with multiple employees, uh, you know, the ten, ten plus employees, maybe some smaller businesses, but only if they have a desire to grow. Um.
So growing businesses is a kind of, that's a kind of green flag for you. This sounds like it might be a good fit for us.
Yeah. It's, it's, it is because it's been an interesting experience for us because we've been a growing business. You know, having gone from from three staff to, um, ten and another two contracts quite quickly. Yeah. Over the last eighteen months, uh, we've appreciated, you know, contracting with people like yourselves for our web and, um, another services, uh, HR companies, solicitors, accountants, all these, all these people that we engage, you know, we see the value in using professional services and getting good service and good value from those services. And, um, you know, I like to, um, we, we look for customers that appreciate that kind of value. So yeah, I mean, if you were to look at the profile of our customer, um, it tends to be the sort of thirty seated, uh, business, uh, that is, has aspirations to, to, to go to the sixty, ninety, one hundred and twenty kind of, kind of, um, um, person or we do have, you know, the people that are just happy. Um, I would say the thing for me is, um, culturally and commercially aligned, i.e. they commercially, they get value, uh, culturally, they want to work with you. They want to be in a partnership. Yep. Um, and that's the thing for us, partnerships are so, so key and it's, it's a mutual exchange of value. Um, for, for us, and I would say working with you guys, uh, that's what.
Careful now.
That's what we get.
Oh you're great. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Didn't know where that was going.
Yeah. Yeah. We could have used you as a bad example, but, uh. Don't worry. Yeah. Yeah. Work. Working with you. You know, it's a partnership. You you feel like an extension of our business and, you know, what.
Do you think your customers, they they think of you as, like their IT department.
Exactly.
That's what you want them to think.
Yeah. Yeah, we want them. And, uh, yeah. And it's, it's a constant education.
So going back to our, like the, the thing we're talking about the crossovers between or lack of crossover, but perceived crossover between IT support companies, I.t companies and web companies. So when you're taking on new business, are you are you ever given that? Oh, and by the way, you know, our website's in a mess. It's not getting updated and we don't know and we're paying a fortune for the hosting or we think we're not backing it up. Can you sort that out for us as well? Or does that not really happen? Um.
It's it's been a long time. The, the main thing tends to be domain name registrations. You know, people might, might be registering a separate, um, a business, a subsidiary or whatever. Yeah. Uh, and at those points, it's like, have you got your website, um, sorted out or could you look at that? And um, you know, it's like ninety nine point nine times out of one hundred. Um, you're referring that away. Yeah. Um, it's like, you know, the closest we'll ever get to web design is pointing a domain name at the current website that the company has. Yeah.
Okay. I'll touch on a slightly thorny issue now. Yeah. Um, in, in, in our experiences IT companies, um, don't really understand DNS and stuff like that.
Yeah. Well the yeah, it's quite funny, I would say, and I would experience web companies doing it, doing nothing about DNS. Okay. It's like honestly. Um, yeah, in our tech meetings, uh, not that I'm involved too much in the tech side of things these days, but in our tech meetings, um, like we, we much prefer to control the DNS. There are so many DNS, domain name, domain name services. Basically what services, uh, go through your domain name, email, cloud services, website, whatever, all these kinds of things. Uh, there are so many more, um, records that need amended from an infrastructure point of view, IT infrastructure and cloud infrastructure. Whereas with, um, with web design and web development, I'm maybe going to get, uh.
You might get pelters here.
Yeah, I might get pelters here. You guys pretty much need like, uh, a Google Analytics record and an a record. Um, and that's about it. Yeah.
Yeah. Record. Sometimes CNAME records, things like that. But yeah, we, we actually do a lot of DNS management for, for customers. We do a lot. We've got, we use, uh, Rackspace. We use their cloud DNS system. And, uh, yeah, if I showed you through it, you'd be quite surprised. Probably some of the names in there where the IT companies come to us and say, could you add this record? Could you add that record? And you know, the reason I said I was I was tongue in cheek, but like we have quite recently and certainly on a regular basis worked with a client's I.t company. And the IT company clearly have no clue about DNS. They just the some of the things that they say and the thing you just like, yeah, that isn't that isn't right. That isn't, you know, you've, you've set this up wrong and stuff like that. I mean, you know, our sysop guy, Phil, I mean, he's, he's like all over it like a rash. So we're at an advantage that we've got somebody who's, who's, um, just, you know, really embedded in that sort of I know it's like anybody listening, this is like, what are these guys talking about? It's a bit ticky, it's a bit geeky, but it basically it's a system that tells the rest of the world where your stuff is. So it tells the world where your website is. So when somebody types in three dubs dot Acme engineering dot com, they see the Acme Engineering website because the DNS system is saying it's over there. And sort of that's kind of, you know, in the same with email and everything else. But, um, yeah, I was, I was, I was being a bit facetious there by saying, yeah, we have found that it's like, oh, for goodness sake, guys, you're it, you know, you know about this stuff.
You've probably made a good point. And where we find ourselves having to interface with a web team, I guess it's more about speed of change. Um, if we need to make a say, for instance, we've got a spamming issue where the, the, the deliverability of emails isn't, isn't satisfactory for a business and they trade through email. Uh, then we've got to look at, well, why is that happening? Yeah. Um, the, um, the last thing that we want is to be contacting a third party. Say, can you make this change? Can you make that change? Has that change been made? I don't know. Yeah. Um yes it has. Yes it has. So it just depends if you've got a good line of communication and a good partnership. So you know, for your, for, for yourselves, if you've, if you've got that service and you know, you guys use, um, like your project management tool. Yeah. Basecamp. Yeah. So there's, there's a good line of communication between, um, you know, supplier to supplier or supplier to customer. Uh, so that definitely is, uh, that makes a big difference.
Yeah, we are really responsive. And I do sometimes think like when I get a request in to do something like that and I do it straight away, I just think, well, you know, what if I was, you know, stood up to me wasting the Atlantic fishing for bass when that came in, because it would generally be me that might service that thing. So yeah, it's not ideal. And I think you're right. I think all the time we'd probably be better if we moved all of our DNS management away to the IT support people, and I'd be quite happy to do that. I mean, we don't make any money out of it. We just do it.
I think the important thing for businesses to remember as well is to have the ability to control it themselves. So to have the ability, if they want to either change supplier or change the person that manages it. Yeah. Um, you know, this is the business's website. This is the business domain name. Why do they want to entrust it with a third party? Um, yes. It's fine to entrust it in terms of management, but management of ownership, I would still, um, rather even if it's what I would term as delegated access so that the customer could, um, you know, engage with another company. And that's, that's where it would work for, for, for us, you know, if we were, um, you know, for instance, working with you guys delegated access or whatever, but I always find it funny with it companies where they, um, they don't give the, the business, um, like full access or the ability to access their system. It's, um, it's like protected. Um, and yes, I understand that from a security point of view. Yeah. But, uh, I don't understand it from, um, like if a business asks, like, could we have our domain or our administrative password? We want to check something. Well, y you know, it's always that that's the thing I think with our business, which I was thinking about earlier when you were chatting away, was with IT companies especially, there's a lot of suspicion, a lot of mistrust. Uh, yeah.
Yeah, I don't, I can't see where that would come from.
Yeah.
Is that because they pay you a retainer and they don't really know what they get for it or something. Because what we do, like a lot of the stuff we do is kind of invisible.
So I was thinking more of the suppliers. So basically the IT companies out there, um, you know, they don't trust customers with things. Oh right. So things like that. So with their domain name or with their, with access to it. But um, well.
I mean, when we've had trouble with domain names like, oh, the domain names expired, it's always when the customer manages it themselves because we have them set on auto renew. Yeah. It's like people like you say it's people's businesses. We can't afford for it to disappear. And certainly not if it was. It's in it's in our safekeeping. So. Yeah, but it's a double edged sword, I think. I mean, we don't for example, we, you know, with with web hosting, you know, the server that website sits on, we don't give clients access to it.
No, that was that's a different kettle of fish. Yeah. But to actually the ownership of their domain name. So they can, they can, they can point to or move it or take it where they want. Yeah. Um, then that's, that's totally fine. So, um, yeah, um, that's definitely, I think we've, we've definitely, uh, rung out the, the DNS tea towel squeezed every last little drop of DNS information out there.
I know. Yeah, people, people will just be, uh, just riveted to listening to, to us rambling on about DNS and stuff. Yeah. Um, I'm trying to think of, um, any other aspects of what you do, what we do, where the perception is that there's a crossover. Um, because clearly, you know, for us, we understand exactly what we do and what we do is communicate, you know, whether it's websites, whether it's, uh, with, you know, the marketing that we do social media, use of social media, etc. it's all about communicating and the tech should kind of be transparent. But thinking about it, I suppose people want the tech they use to, you know, do what they do to also be transparent. They don't want to have to think about it. They just want it to work. They want to switch it on and it works. And I guess that's kind of what you do, isn't it? You want you, you're trying to make sure that they hardly ever need you.
Yeah.
You don't kind of.
I don't care. Just make it just I don't, I don't care how it works. Just make it work. And, and yeah. And these days it's and keep it secure. That's, that's the main kind of thing. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's something I've just thought of something that, uh, you guys, um, that it was kind of bigger of maybe about a year or so ago when Google Chrome, um, started to, um, sort of flag up these certificates, you know, the, the secure SSL certificates where, you know, it would flash up saying this site is not secure. You know, in Amazon. Um, and these certificates. That is definitely something where we see a crossover. Um, yeah, because we used to have to provide, um, these certificates for email servers. We don't supply email servers anymore. Everything's driven through through Microsoft three hundred sixty five. But you guys still have to do that.
And yeah, I mean, it's a kind of, it's an automated process. And, um, it's now, uh, you know, it's now free used to be to have these things so that your website had a little padlock and it looked like it was secure. Um, they varied in price from the EV, the extended validation SSL certificates, which used to be. And we had one. So that in the, in the, in the web browser where it's got the web address, you know, three Dubsdread evolution dot com. It would have read evolution limited in green writing and a padlock. And it was like, you are definitely on Red evolution's website, not somebody pretending to be red evolution, but the browsers don't do that anymore. So now we just use the free SSL because they all look the same. Yeah.
Ultimately, I would never have known that. I would never have known that. So. So all the different colored writing and things like that. Yeah. That's a super secure.
Yeah. That's right. I mean, we do still have customers that are using EV extended validation. That's where the people that issue the certificate actually get in touch. And you go through a manual process of proving that you are who you say you are as opposed to. I mean, the whole kind of SSL thing was forced by Google. And it's, it's kind of a moot point because, I mean, most websites, most websites are just kind of sending words and pictures. I mean, all your online banking and lots of other stuff isn't, but it doesn't really matter if somebody intercepts and can actually look at that, that traffic, it doesn't make any odds. So but Google just thought, right, we want the whole web to be more secure. And so that, that that was brought in. And yeah, whether or not it's of, you know, most people don't really understand what it is because it's not actually saying the website's not secure. It's saying the communication between your computer and the website isn't secure, which is what the SSL.
Yeah. There you go.
It's encrypting the traffic between the two things. So if somebody listens to the traffic, it's just gobbledygook.
See, that's why I leave that to you guys. Like, I must admit.
That's why we leave it to Phil, because Phil Phil's all over.
It. Yeah, yeah. And that and that's where, like, you know, be an expert, use an expert. So. So you'd be good at what you can do to pay somebody else to do what they're doing. Well. Yeah. And um, yeah, when I.
Think Harvard as well, they'd be an expert using expert.
No. Would you, would you believe do you know where I got that line from? I actually got that line from a really cheesy book called How to get, get a great Website for Your business.
Seriously, that's what we use. It's our Bible.
It's like, it's like a proper nineteen eighties or late nineties kind of, um, like, you know, it's, it's like these things where you have to like, you go into w h Smith Smith and you can like build your own will dot com kind of thing. And there was this like, how, how to make a website for your business or how to get and be an expert. Using expert was one of the quotes. That's the only quote I got out of it. Yeah, but it is true. It's about it's about being good. And what I was, um, getting on to that was, um, we know the, the sort of ball ache around getting SSL certificates set up. Uh, it's not the greatest thing for us as an infrastructure guys to be getting sorted out. Yeah, we can do it. No bother. Um, but when we were moving, we changed our domain name, um, from a dot tech to dot com. And, and I remember the conversation and I remember asking, were you guys sort out the SSL and you're like, yeah, we'll do that. No bother. And you just made it sound like it was just a piece of cake. That's right. That's what you want. Yeah, exactly. So I just thought, well, that's fine. I'll just go out and we'll carry on being an IT support business and earn money and, and paid pay ready to do what they're doing.
Well, it's that safe pair of hands concept, isn't it. I mean, one of the things I'll say like, you know, going a little bit off topic, off topic now, but I think that's fine. Um, you know, like at the earliest stage of running a business, I would say like hire an accountant, let the accountant do your books, let them do your vat, let them do your payroll. It's not that expensive. It's not expensive at all, in my opinion. And it's, it's money well spent. And, and the same for looking after tech. But you know, you've already said that. Well, you know, sort of ten, twenty, thirty people onwards, you know, a certain size of company is where it gets good for you. I mean, what would you say to people who are much smaller than that? Would you say have a go yourself? Or would you say, look at some of the smaller providers? I know you've got a referring partner that you use. So at what point should people use it? Support companies?
Yeah, it's a, it's a really that's a really good question. And um, for, for me, um, if it, if you'd asked me this question eighteen months, maybe two years ago, I would have said, well, you know, you could like just Google it and get up and running with Microsoft three hundred sixty five and get your email. I would definitely say a platform like, um, you know, Microsoft three hundred sixty five. We're a vendor for that. So that's the easiest one for me to refer to. I know there are others out there that are available. Mhm. But, um, but yeah, I would always recommend, um, starting off with some kind of cloud based email system just because it's scalable, you know, the, um, at hotmail dot com email addresses, uh, or even worse, uh, at Btinternet. Um, which is actually run by Microsoft three hundred sixty five. Um, so it's, it's just really, you.
Still see loads of that stuff going around. I mean, the butcher's next door is he makes great pies, but he got his van all done with livery and you know, um, you know, butcher's name and everything all over it. And then it was like butcher's at AOL dot com, you know, butcher's at AOL dot com. It's like AOL. Is that still a thing? You know what I mean? It's just yeah, I mean, and it's so cheap to have use your own domain name and do your email. I mean, I don't know, I mean, I don't know what, uh, a three, six, five mailbox cost, but it's not a lot of money, is it?
No. I mean, if you want to go for the, um, the most basic mailbox, it's like three or four pounds a month. Yeah. Um, which for a business is, is not a lot of money to spend, but I would always recommend like, um, I would, I would recommend engaging with somebody who knows something about it pretty quickly. Yeah.
Um, so like a tier below you in terms of like maybe a one or two person organisation and they look after small businesses.
That sort of thing.
I would keep them, right?
I would make sure that they have an element of security focus. Um, what we've been finding, uh, over the last eighteen months is just that, you know, the cyber security side of things, uh, with people working from home, cyber criminals have got a heck of a lot smarter in terms of trying to trick people out of their, their details. Uh, you know, the emails that you receive, the email, the, the most simplest gateway to confuse a human. Um, you know, it's like, uh, you receive something that looks like it's from, from somebody, you know, and it's not, it's actually taking you to a portal, which looks like you're signing into a portal that looks familiar. And before you know it, you know that's it. Your your email address and password have gone. The worst thing now is, is that hackers don't actually do anything. They used to be really lucky. They just used to, um, start sending spam from your mailbox. They don't do that now. They, they, they sit and can sit for months and then build up a profile of your emails going back and forth and then suddenly work out how to strike. Yeah. Um, so that's pretty frightening. So getting back to your, your point about setting yourself up, you want to get, you want to get things set up properly to start with. I mean, um, sometimes we will do a one off consultancy for, uh, businesses that are, that are needing to get set up. If they are, if they are new or small, um, we'll do a one off consultancy to give them that foundation. Um, and you do need that peace of mind that things are actually set up securely because yeah, you can Google it. Yeah. You can set up Microsoft three hundred sixty five to a basic level, but it gets back to our old friend DNS. And there are loads of different records that you need to set up in order to make your, your mail secure. And also setting up all the security recommendations like having the six digit code as well as a password, you know, the six digit code, multi-factor authentication. Yeah. Those things are so important now. Um, and for, for that to all get set up if you're, you know, you're a well intending business owner, uh, that's setting up their business, selling whatever widget or whatever service. And you're sort of like thinking, I'm going to save some cash by turning my hand to, um, googling how to set up my email. Um, yeah, she'll get, you'll get far enough, but, um, you could just put yourself in a really strange foundation that once the business builds, then, you know, things will fall over or things will cost a lot more to change?
Do you think I mean, you know, again, going back to the crossovers between your business and our business, I mean, there's there's lots of people in our industry who you might loosely call have a go heroes. Um, and, you know, quite often we're talking to people and they, they're talking about somebody who's given this, you know, supposedly sage like advice and they've been talking shite basically. I mean, they're just not giving them the right advice at all. And yet they're almost saying, oh, well, my friend said this and my friend said that, and they're holding that in much greater store than like actual experts like us. Yeah. I mean, do you find that some people try and school you in, in, in your area of expertise and you have to kind of talk them down and say, well, that's not quite right or, um, well.
Yeah, it's it you do, you do see it from time to time. Like that's almost like a mistrust of. Yeah. So, so yeah, ideally, you, you really want to, to build up, build up the trust so that, um, that you, you get to a point where people are just, um, they're not going to listen to the have a go heroes as you mentioned, or whatever. Um, and um, if you do find yourself in a situation where you simply can't build up the trust with the customer, you've got to let that customer go. Yeah, totally. You do. Because if it's about what I would say at term is being culturally aligned, if you're not culturally aligned, if you don't, if you don't see that a relationship is a mutual exchange of value, um, pay, I'll pay you money for your IT services, whatever. I'll pay you money for for web, then, you know, if people can't see that value and that trust, then it's, it's game over as far as I'm concerned. You can't. Um, and yeah, we could, we could speak for hours about things like have a go here.
People out there now screaming no, don't, don't.
Keyboard warriors whatever. But it's just a pointless waste of energy to speak about that. You just, you just want to like, recognise it and move on from it. Um, but yeah, um, speaking about like you get situations where you have, um, like, oh yeah, my friend's son does a bit of it and they fix it for me or um, my friend's daughter or whatever is a web developer. They've, they've set this up for me. I think in those situations, there is definitely a, a line where people then realise, actually we need to get a proper company in here. Yeah. The danger I find with, with businesses where they sort of like pull somebody who's employed within the business, uh, to come in and do it. So they might have somebody who's in finance or finance for some reason gets coupled in with it. It does. I have no idea.
I don't know why as well, but I've seen that a lot.
Um, yeah. So all that kind of happens and yeah, I um, if you've got somebody that's within the business, um, and then they start to potentially get, maybe they realise that they're on to a winner here. Their, their, their position is of power because they're there within the, within the, it, they've pretty much got the keys to the business. Yeah. Um, then that becomes a really difficult situation. Yeah. Um, and um, we, we've had it in the past where um only things have only changed when that person has left. Mhm.
And isn't it funny? I get that totally that, that whole like, you know, they give somebody like you say, the keys to the business and it finishes up almost being held to ransom by people who were who, who they employ. And it's bizarre. You know, we saw that not too long ago with a company who their IT guy had looked after their website and it was in a real mess. What the software hadn't been updated and it had been messed around with the software, so you couldn't actually update it without breaking everything. We had to go and unpick it and we were happy to do it. But all of the time he was, he was there. First of all, he was absolutely downright rude to us because we were, as far as he was concerned, stepping on his toes.
Stealing his.
Lunch. He was really, really rude. And then at the end of the process, he, you know, I will need this, I will need that. I will need the other, you know, from us, in other words, access and stuff like that. And he was like, no, you're not getting any of that. And now that's because the business people within the organisation, they were just like hugely relieved that this guy no longer was holding them to ransom because for years all he'd been saying to them was, no, no, we can't do that. No, no, you can't do that, you know, and, and really an awful situation. I do wonder how many other people are in that position.
Yeah, yeah. And that's I guess that's coming back to the um the thing of like, well, would you employ as a, as a thirty user business or a thirty person business, would you employ an accountant full time in your business? Or would you, would you ask somebody within the business to turn their hand? Or can you go and do the profit and loss for us? Yeah. You know, um, whereas, you know, you want that third party validation, you want those skills. And, and the same goes for when you're, when you're wanting to do things with, with, uh, with web and with, with Infrastructure as well with IT infrastructure. So yeah, it's a, it's a frightening thought. Um, I mean, like you say, this is just a chat about it. You don't want to get into sort of like, you know, this is why you should buy, uh, or, or you should engage, engage with a third party. Yeah. Professional business. Um, for, um, for, for services, for all your services. Yeah. Unless you're a, you know, unless you're a ginormous company and you know, you're, yeah, but that's, that's corporate world and you're not allowed to have feelings in corporate world. So, you know.
Have you ever worked in a corporate.
World? No, I haven't actually. No.
I was a contractor in the oil industry for a while, and I worked for the likes of Brown and Root and various drilling companies and stuff like that. But I was always a contractor, so I was always on the outside looking in. I mean, I did serve my time in a in an organisation called Vickers Shipbuilders, which now is British Aerospace, BAE systems as it is now. So I was with that for like four years when I was serving my apprenticeship. But yeah, I don't know what it is. I've certainly avoided the whole the whole corporate thing. And yeah, probably don't fully understand it, if I'm honest. And we come into touch with corporates as we do work for some really big organisations and, uh, yeah, different animal altogether.
Yeah, they, they definitely are. Um, and I remember being, I did one contract with a large corporate and um, I was, that was back in the days when I actually got my hands dirty and installed servers. And, um, I was setting up virtual servers for a financial forecasting app for a large corporate and, um, I would be in, in the meetings and you just basically you had all these, it, um, guys and, um, project managers and it just was like a, a sort of like arse covering competition. That was all it was. It was like, you know, it's like, how can I talk this meeting round and round so that I don't have to commit to doing anything in a hurry. And then it would get round to me. And it's just like, well, Bruce, you know what, what do you what, Where? Where do you sit with this? What are you doing with the servers? Uh, I'll get them installed tomorrow, and then I'll get them tested Friday. And you should be up and running by by Monday. And they're like, what? You know, it's just like this deadly silence. Like, um, like this guy's actually gonna do what he's gonna say he's gonna do.
Yeah.
Yeah. And he's happy doing it. Um, so yeah, that was my one.
So he didn't last long, obviously.
No, I didn't last long. I was too handy. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't, uh, yeah. Like the dairy. I didn't get the whole thing about, um, perpetuating the days to, to get more dairy out of them.
But why do you enjoy doing what you do? Because I can see you do enjoy it the way you talk about it. You enjoy it. I mean, what what aspect of it do you enjoy? I mean, the aspect of just, just to sort of say what I mean. I love what I do and I love running Red evolution, and it's not necessarily because I like lines of code or, or beautiful designs. It's because I like helping people and I like helping businesses to grow. That's really is what drives me. I mean, what is it in your line of work, which you're clearly enthusiastic about? And you've been doing this for quite a long time now. What is it that really kind of does it for you?
I mean, since like sort of two thousand and three, two thousand and four onwards. Um, or back in the day when I did, did my Microsoft Certified systems engineer course in server two thousand. Yeah. So that's when it was black. I remember.
Server two thousand.
Yeah. Um, so, so yeah, what I would say is, is that I've always worked in customer services. So we see you as soon as you mentioned helping people. Yeah. Like that just really strikes a chord with me. I love helping people. Yeah. Um, and it does give you, um, a fulfillment. Yeah. And so I always say, I said originally when I got into the IT business, um, I love helping people. I love a gadget, I love technology. So what better business to be in. You know, like I don't work a day because I basically do what I love. Yeah. I love helping people. I love technology and, um, it's funny though, because, um, the helping people for me has changed, um, especially over the last maybe three or four years and, um, looking at where the business is going. So I no longer, um, I see the benefits of, um, introducing businesses to technology. Um, but it's more my employees that do that now. Yeah. Um, it's the staff. So what I do is, um, I, I hold the context of, um, we are building a business of which we are proud and I hold that context and, um, and then manage the energy of the staff. So I don't actually do, uh, much day to day work within the business. Yes. I do business development.
Which is how it should be.
Yeah. It is. I mean, um, I would, I would, uh, yeah, that's a, that's a whole nother podcast. Yeah, it is about this, but working.
On it instead of in it. Yeah, I went to Harvard as well. Do you know what?
You always hear that. Yeah. You hear that? Oh, I want to work on it then in it. But, um, like you've got to bloody well just make the decision to do it, I know.
Um have you made that decision. Have you managed it entirely.
Not entirely but but yeah, I mean.
Neither have.
I. So what, what we set about um doing. So where why I got onto the subject of what I do now is, is basically, um, managing the energy of the people within the business. That's what I do. Um, they, they do like.
Touchy feely that is making sure their cameras. Right. And you know, they do fine in the office and all that kind of stuff.
Well, we do yoga.
Okay.
Yeah, we've got one at one of our, uh, one of our staff, uh, is a qualified yoga teacher. Okay. So we take, uh, there's yoga twice a week. I'll, I'll toe yoga. Fantastic. So, so yeah. So yeah, the, the mind and the body are intrinsically linked. So, you know, it's, it's good, good to good to look after both. And if we can offer that as a, as a perk for our, uh, our staff, then we're, we're doing it. But yeah, I mean, in terms of like, have I, am I working on the business rather than in it? Yes. Um, the thing that I would say is my inbox is pretty empty these days. Um, and, um, everybody else is, is, is um, doing the work, but they're loving it, they're enjoying it. I can see it. I get the feedback, you know, um, and um, I was just trying to think about the, um, the thing about the, the staff and what they do now, I can't remember, I've lost the thread of my conversation.
first.
one. Yeah. No, no, first one in a while.
But yeah, so yeah, but getting this, getting staff, getting your guys to be as, you know, like you would be when you're speaking to customers and handling customers, um, queries and helping them solve problems and everything and making them feel safe, wrapping your arms around them and saying, look, we've got this. Don't worry about it. We'll take care of it kind of thing. I suppose, you know, getting your staff to understand that and be that be the same as that is can be a challenge. But it sounds to me like that's pretty much what you've managed to engineer with your business.
What a brilliant challenge to have. Yeah. What all I have to do is turn up, make people feel safe in their job, and let them leave at the end of the day, feeling fulfilled. Like, give me that any day over an IP address or a DNS server. You know.
DNS again, we've done DNS.
We've done it. We've done.
It. Yeah.
But, uh, it's like, and the thing is, we, we don't have the ability to control what's out there. Yeah. We, uh, or manage what's out there as much as we do in, within the organisation. So if we get the organisation right, then out there is just going to be fine because like, it's that whole thing about, uh, you know, yourself, um, like know yourself and be yourself, love yourself kind of thing. You know, if you're sorted within yourself, then everything out there is going to be fine. And that's the same thing with the business, you know, um, if it's all, um, good in the business, if there's, you know, if everything's working, working, right. And there is a safe space there for people, then people are going to gravitate towards the business. Customers are going to gravitate suppliers as well. You know, we always say, I mean, productivity, peace of mind, platform for growth and, uh, platform for growth is not just, uh, a strapline for our clients. It's for our staff as well. You know, we encourage them to grow. Mhm. Uh, we encourage them to, to, to constantly challenge themselves. Yeah.
If you're, and challenge customers as well and try and take customers down the right route, the right road. Absolutely. Is that a challenge sometimes or.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, but it's a good, it's a good, fun challenge. Um, I think if you give people options and you make sure you've covered all the bases. Yeah. Then what's, you know, what's the problem? Um, and um.
Do you get people pushing back when they should be doing something because of cost or they don't buy it or what, what's.
You do? Um, it's not so common these days. Um, you have to make sure and have, like you say, customers who understand value. And if they do, then if you've got more customers like that, that's the key to, to any business is having customers you want to work with for sure. Um, you know, the bravest businesses drop the customers they don't want to work with. Absolutely.
Um, I mean, one of the ways that we approach new customers is we do a discovery session and that's, um, in the dim and distant past, it used to be a paid exercise. We used to get paid for doing it. Yeah. But we took a step back from it and thought, that's not right, because what we see as is an opportunity to get to know the customer and figure out what their problems are. You know, that we solve, you know, marketing, etc., marketing, growth, sales, that sort of thing. And then figure out whether we're the right people to help them. Yeah. I mean, do you do a sort of similar thing with customers? You actually actually go and look at the lay of the land, see what they're doing, how they're doing it, what sort of help they need. And, and you might be tempted, whether it's a cultural thing or for any other reason to say, we're not the right guys for you.
Yeah, I would say the right fit is really important. You know, the key is relationship and relationship is, is something that's it's so important. Uh, it has to be right for, for both of you, you know? Yeah. Or else it's never going to work. Yeah.
We think chemistry as well. I mean, a big thing for us is chemistry. We know when we do this discovery work is the chemistry. Then again it sounds a bit touchy feely and but but it you know you're going to be incredibly Deeply embedded in a person's business. You're looking after their. It. You're looking. You're keeping you're keeping them running. Yeah. You know, in a modern world, you're keeping them spinning and making sure that they can do what they do and send out their invoices and make money. And so there has to be really quite an intimate relationship. And for us to do what we do, we kind of need to see the business, warts and all, you know, and, and to get people to open up and, and tell you all the stuff, which they tend to actually, I mean, it's very rare that we're in a meeting and, oh, we can't tell you that. Oh, no, we couldn't possibly tell you that. I mean, they tend to open up and it does develop a fantastic working relationship.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we, we tend to work with um owner managed businesses and yeah, yeah, they are, they are good fun to work with. And when you're working with them, um, yeah, you do have to, to get to know them. Um, really well. And you know, it's, it's, you get to know them from a technological point of view. You get to know them from a personal point of view. Um, you know, you get to know them from a cultural point of view. Yeah. Just, just to make sure. And these are things like we have, um, regular, uh, visits, regular meetings, technical, technical, business reviews, as we call them. Yeah. Or quarterly business reviews. Um, there's, there's definitely lots of things that you've got to, you've got to keep, keep moving and, uh, within, within the business and, and always, always, always be in communication. Like always, always be. And if you can spot something that, um, needs to be communicated, whether it's good or bad or whether you perceive it or good or bad, you know, it's, it's up, up, up, up for you, for the customer to know. But I was thinking from your point of view, um, you know, we've spoken about what we do as a business in terms of like, you know, uh, you know, we've effectively got the keys to the business kind of thing and, uh, but you must have businesses that are like that as well, ones that depend on their website for their business or their website wasn't there. Absolutely. So in terms of like the relationships that you. So do you, do you, um, you know, you don't have the same relationship with everybody, obviously, but, um, you know, do you find that those kinds of businesses, um, the ones that are selling through their websites, like shops or whatever, do you have a deeper relationship with them or do you.
Yeah, we probably do. I mean, we, we don't do many e-commerce sites, but we do sites which are transactional insofar as they are generating enquiries and from that, you know, generating sales. Yeah. Okay. Um, professional services engineering companies. Um, yeah, a French client of ours, master industry have pretty much stopped doing trade shows and things because they get all the business they need through their website. And that's, that's amazing. It really is. It's fantastic. And that's from, that's from the horse's mouth. Um, or is it the cheval bouche? I don't know, I'm trying to learn French. Uh, no. Um, uh, they, they rely on their website. Yeah. If their website disappeared, it would be, it would be a disaster. It would be it would be really big news, bad news for them. And increasingly, you know, our, um, uh, collection group of clients, that's it. It's the same thing. You know, their website is, is a key part of the business. And to be honest, I mean, that's, that's the reason that we get involved in the first place, you know, website gigs where, oh, you know, we just, we just need like something like small, like, oh, we just need somebody to host our website. We've had, you know, we're trying to help somebody out just now, local local business, uh, usual thing, you know, I mean, they don't want to spend any money and it's not the sort of business we want, but they're a local business and we want to help them. So, but, you know, we're probably going to do it. But that sort of transactional relationship, it's just like, we'll host your website and keep it spinning. That's it is it's not really where we are. And this, again, we've talked about this a few times. I think it comes back to understanding what the value proposition is from us, understanding how we, how we're going to help people and the kinds of people, kinds of businesses that we can help. Um, and that is, as you said, you know, Increasingly just about entirely. Now, all of our retained clients are businesses who rely heavily on their website, or if they don't rely heavily on the website, they want us to get to the point where their website is adding huge value, as in enquiries and and visibility, at which point it will be adding huge value to their business. So it's not a serve. In fact, just to finish off that, one of the things that is a red flag for me is when we're talking to people and they say we're looking for a new vendor or we're looking for a new provider, because like, to me, if they're not using the P word, and by that I mean partner, we're probably not the right business for them. I wish.
I wish you could see a furrowed brow on a, on a microphone because I was really furrowing my brow like that. That whole thing about going out to tender every three years or whatever or, uh, vendor. Yeah. It's, it's, it's not, it's not how businesses should be run. No.
Um, it's not how anything should be run and particularly the public sector, because they have to do it that way, because they have to be transparent and they can't be seen to favour anybody. And I get all that. But in my opinion, they get dreadful value as a result of it because they just go out to these, you know, you don't even get to sit down and talk to them to try and figure out exactly what it is they need. It's just like, answer these questions, tick these boxes and we'll pick somebody and hope for the best. Don't get me on my high horse.
Yeah, yeah. No. But no. An interesting thing that came to mind when you were speaking about when I mentioned e-commerce. Um, and then, you know, you said how you focus, um, on businesses that sell through their websites, but not e-commerce. Yeah. That, that gets me on to a whole different world of there are obviously specialties within your industry. Yeah. You know, so somebody could assume and come to you saying, oh, Dave. Dave's business ready would do websites. You know, they could, they could get me a Shopify site up and running in no time kind of thing. Whereas would that be a case of that's not a right fit for you or.
That's a really good point. Uh, the short answer to that is no, because quite a lot of people come to us because they're looking for search engine optimisation, SEO. Yeah. And they think that's all we do. Yeah. And, you know, we, we will have conversations and they go, oh, you do that as well. You know, and you probably do as well. I think most businesses do. Yeah. In fact, you know, we speak to customers who, who've, who said like, we've been, we've got, we've had this client for five years. And one day they turn around and said, oh, we didn't realise you did that. And I think a lot of businesses are guilty of not letting their clients know the full range of services that they offer. But yeah, some people come to us because they need a new website. And, you know, we might, we'll typically say, okay, why do you need a new website? What is it you want the website to do? And, you know, in a very small number of cases, they might just get all of their business via referrals. They might get it all via LinkedIn. You know, they don't need to be found in search. They don't need to be all over social media or anything else, but they just need a website that when they send people to it, it like blows people away and they're like, oh, wow, yeah, I was going to use you guys use you guys anyway, but I'm definitely going to do. Yeah, yeah, a little bit like that. So we do get a few gigs like that, but most of the time when we have conversations with people and I'd be interested to hear from your business and from your perspective, whether you find this, but they actually come looking for web design. And then the first conversation we have leaves them kind of recognising that, wait a minute. No, I don't just need a website. When I said I needed a website, what I really meant was I need more enquiries, for example.
Yeah. You know, so in terms of like, you've got SEO. Mhm. Um, would you put that under the sort of like the bucket, if you like, of web development and then. No, I.
Mean, no, but web developers often know nothing about SEO. And so a lot of the websites that we fix have been built by developers who clearly know nothing about SEO because just you can just tell by the way it's been put together. Um, so, um, so I asked the question again. What were you saying?
Yeah, I was, I was actually just going to get on to the subject of like the different facets. So you've got, you've got your SEO search engine optimisation, number one on Google, whatever. Um, but then the thing for me with, uh, you were speaking about the services that you offered, um, web development and web design.
Yeah.
They're two different things, really different things.
That's right. I mean, um, you know, Diana, who does a lot of our design work, he works with Rob and with Leslie as well. But Diana, um, she can use some of the Wysiwyg tools like Unbounce we use for building landing pages and HubSpot. We use, uh, she could build landing pages. There's like drag and drop environments. Yeah. But you start talking to her about CSS and HTML and PHP and JavaScript and all that. Not a clue. Absolutely. No. But she has a fantastic relationship with the devs and like equally, and, you know, some sometimes web developers are frustrated designers because anyone can create something that on the on face value looks presentable, you can just install a template on WordPress and ta da, look at me. I designed a website where you didn't really, you just put a template onto a piece of software and got what got what came out the other end. But yeah, developers are not designers very rarely. You know, we've got one guy, Rob, who did a degree in graphic design. Uh, so he's a, he's a graphic designer. He then has spent most of his career doing development, but he's one of these rare people who's got that crossover between design and development. And he, you know, he's, he's fantastic. And, but even he's kind of pulled back a bit more from design and left the designer to design to the people who are only doing design. So yeah, I mean, across the board, you know, like Julie's a chartered marketer. I'm a chartered engineer. Dave's a developer, Rob's a designer. Uh, you know, you know, and there's a whole range of skills in there.
And so you're just not going to get one person like a one person business unless they're super human, aren't going to be able to provide the, the full level.
So that's right.
Through it support on the top of that and you're just going to explode. Yeah.
I mean, if you, you know, say you take a business that's like thirty people, what sort of disciplines? If they said, oh, we're going to build our own IT team, could they could, could they find one person who could absolutely nail it for them?
I had a conversation with somebody this week about that. They were like, oh, we want to just get this one IT person. And they sent me the job spec saying, can you advise me on, um, like, um, like good, um, recruitment agencies in Aberdeen for that. So I gave them, gave them a couple of names. Um, but I looked at the job spec and I said you're asking for three people here. Yeah. You know, um, they mentioned things to do with um, it was like development of some coding system and then there was infrastructure support. Yeah. And then there was installation of different types of infrastructure. And I was like, you're looking at three, three different people here.
Did they buy into that? Did they recognise.
Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um and I suggested um they weren't a business for I don't think we could have fulfilled their services. They did a lot of Amazon, um, hosted stuff. AWS stuff. And we don't specialise in that. So, um, I immediately just said, no, I don't think we would be appropriate, but I think you could potentially find a managed service provider out there that would take that element for whatever, fifteen grand a year. And then that leaves you with a budget to go and hire somebody to do the other two bits. But yeah, but yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Like, it just goes to show that you can't hire one person to do your website in the, in the business, you can't hire one person to do your, it, um, you know, and also not forgetting if you've got one person in your organisation doing it, that's a person, that person needs holidays. Yeah. You know, that person takes nights off and weekends off and, you know, it's like, it's, it's crazy.
Yeah, I think the, I think, you know, what you provide in your line of business and we provide in our line of business is, um, you know, it's, I think it's often undervalued. I would say that, wouldn't I? You know, poor old me. Get the violins out. But it's often undervalued because yeah. You know, like for one fee a month, people are getting a whole range of services and a fractional designer, fractional marketer, fractional developer, coder, you know, they're getting all of that. And it must be the same with what you do in that, you know, there's going to be someone in your organisation who can solve a particular problem they happen to have this week because you're looking after them.
So how do you prove that value?
I mean, for us, I suppose, you know, the, the there's lots of things you can measure in our line of work. I'd be interested to hear about the stuff you can measure, because I know that you can create like it dashboards, can't you, that show you the performance of servers and all that kind of stuff. It's the same with us. And you know, to be honest, nine times out of ten, you know, it's like, can we directly attribute a sale, an enquiry to something that we did for our customer? And that's where the real value comes in. Yeah. We could show them stats which show sure that they're now getting a lot more web traffic that they used to rank at number twenty for this search phrase, and they're now at number five for it. That's great. You know, some of that's um, is feeding into this end result, but it's the end results that we're really interested in, you know, but going back to your business, the end result for you is that, well, we haven't had to call you for six months. Why are we paying all this money? Yeah. You know, I don't know if that's a thing, but it's it's it occurs to me it probably could be a thing.
It's it's, it's more spoken about, um, as a meme in the industry than it actually happens. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I was actually, uh, I, I think for me, the answer, if I speak about why do I know I'm getting value for from red evolution, for instance? Um, because I've got a relationship with you. Yeah. Because I trust what you're doing because we, we meet regularly and, uh, we have conversations and I can feel that I trust you and that that's what it is. You know, you can have like, dashboards till you're blue in the face. Yeah. Um, you can have statistics, but I mean, gosh, like, give me more than a paragraph of information to read and I'm lost. I'm away. Like not interested. I've skimmed, I've skimmed a paragraph. Yeah. Um, so just like me.
I'm a bit like that. I've got to be honest. Yeah.
Well that's the thing. Like, that's my rule about email. If you're going to write more than a paragraph, pick up the phone. Um, there's just no point. Um, so email ironically, is one of the poorest communication tools you'll ever use in your life. Um, it's, it's the words that are on a, on a page. There's no body language, there's no intonation with that. So you've no chance of actually communicating anything other than, you know, here's your price list. Yeah, let me know if you, if you want any more or here's your quote, but, uh, but yeah, get getting back to how do you, how do you prove or how do you demonstrate your, your value in terms of all the work that you do? Um, I think it's, it's just back to the relationship and it's back to the trust. And, uh, you know, For me, it's always at the end of the meeting, setting that next meeting and saying, right, let's, let's just track this. Let's keep in touch. Um, and if you, if you don't, if you don't exercise it, if you don't exercise, for instance, if you don't exercise, you're, you're, you're going to lose your fitness. So if you don't exercise, uh, your, uh, your relationship, then you're going to going to lose it. So yeah, that's, that's what, that's how I feel. Um, yeah, forget the dashboards. Yeah, yeah. Come and see each other.
Do some people ask for them even though they probably don't really know why they're asking for it and what they're looking at. But just because they should.
I feel, I feel ashamed if a customer asks me for a meeting, uh, because that's up to us to make sure we're providing a service, we're providing value. We should be saying, right, we're going to like in our experience, your size of business requires this. And if there is an issue, if you have got something that does require more, then yes, you might have to put in more effort. Um, for a retainer base that might cost you money. But what investment are you making emotionally and relationship wise? That's what it's about. Um, but yeah, I would, um, yeah, I, I, in some ways, um, on the flip side of it, I'm delighted that people want to come and want to see me. They're mad, but well, well, um, like they'll want to force me out the door after. It's like he never shuts up.
Anyone's still listening to this. Probably nobody's still listening. But if they are, they're probably thinking that, as I say. Yeah, I think so. Do these guys ever stop talking? Hey, you know where the off button is? Yeah. Yeah.
So, uh, but yeah, I don't know if we've, we've, we've, uh, we've, uh, I guess we started with the subject of.
Yeah, we kind of wandered around a bit as I expected to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, uh, what, what it's, what it's taught me in the conversation is just that, you know, the facets of, of, of businesses full stop, you know, um, um, the fact that, uh, an SEO web marketing type business. There's so many areas to it. And, uh, you know, in order to get value, it's, it's, it's not about, um, you know, trying to do a bit yourself and, and hoping it works. It's about engaging with somebody for a proper relationship.
What did you say? You know, experts hire experts.
Yeah. Be an expert. Use an expert.
That's right. It's good though, I like it. Yeah.
Do what you do best. Earn your earn your crust, earn your money doing what you do best. Because like, I can earn a lot more money, um, selling and managing um, our customers it and getting new customers. Then I can by doing a quick course on SEO for, for dummies and then like Bunging in a few keywords and trying to do a, a Google AdWords campaign. Yeah. I wouldn't know where to start. Like, so it would take me days to learn how to do that to start with. And then I would learn how to do it and think, oh, look at me, I'm really smart. I've managed to, um, do, uh, an ad campaign. I haven't had to pay, uh, a web company to do that. And then within a few weeks, it's, it's maybe got you the, the thing that you wanted. It's got you one customer. So you're off looking after that customer. And in that time, you're not exercising that SEO brain, you're just forgetting about it. Yeah.
So I think it's common with small businesses through necessity. They kind of have a go themselves. And I get that. But yeah, my view is like, just get, get experts to do it. Just concentrate on what you do. Yeah, I think I really, I feel like quite strongly and we did it even when there was only two or three of us, we still paid an accountant a retainer to look after everything. So everything was good.
Yeah. I think it's quite frightening. I think when you when you first start in business and sometimes people in business, um, you know, they look at money as their, their own money when they should look at it as the business's money and the business needs to spend this money, work out the budget. And, you know, yes, if an accountant's going to cost you six thousand pounds a year, that's the that's that's the price they're going to be going to be. And if you can't afford to pay it, then, you know, is your business viable? Are you are you, are you in it for the right reasons? Mhm. Yeah. But but yeah, it's been, it's been really interesting just chewing the fat and, and having a chat.
We've enjoyed it even if nobody else has. And that's the important thing. Exactly. Yeah. And there's still three Jaffa Cakes on the table.
Three Jaffa cakes. And I'm, I'm. I've still got half a cup of tea. So we've got, we've got a microwave to warm it up.
We have, we have.
Yeah. Excellent.
Okay. Bruce. That was great. Um, I think we'll obviously talk again and we'll talk again. But we'll have we'll do some more podcasts and we'll just sort of think about some of the things that we want to talk about in future.
I'd be interested to, to have a chat business, business, business to business owner. Yeah. Let's speak about how our business is run and yeah, um, you know, we've, we've gone through a lot of change and yeah. Um, and you've done the same, you know, you've, you've taken in, um, you know, multidisciplinary people, people that do, um, you know, you've probably gone from doing a lot of it yourself to then, um, putting the right people in the right functions within your business. Yeah. So I'd love to speak about that.
Yeah, that would be, I mean, that's what we want to do with the podcast anyway. I mean, it's, you know, we've kind of got like digital marketing from the coalface, but, you know, it is a, I mean, digital marketing for me is embedded in business growth. And it's, you know, and business growth is a huge subject and you've grown a business, you know, I've grown a business. So I think there's a lot of stuff that we could share that would be useful. And even if we don't, even if we can't share anything with other people, you know, we can learn, learn off each other as well as, which is what most business people do most of the time. You know, as I've found, you know, it's as you just learn by experience, learn from listening to others. And, um, yeah, let's, let's do that. Let's have a podcast around about that, around that subject, maybe something specific. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, it's been fun.
Yeah. Good stuff. Excellent. Much.