Yeah, we've spoken about that before, haven't we? How we you know, I think again, back to this idea of helping businesses, rescuing bad situations with tech. We've had some really good conversations today trying to solve client problems. We're not even going to particularly get paid. No. Well, putting serious brain time onto looking at the situation that a client or a potential clients in and trying to figure out exactly what they should be doing. You know, the.
Work that clients thank us for, the flashy stuff, the stuff that they see and think, oh yeah, that's worth the money. I'm paying for it. It's never the work that takes ages to sort of wrestle down and that you sort of mull over when you're sat at home eating dinner or whatever. That's always the stuff that sort of just flies under the radar. But yeah, it is a tricky thing without trying to turn it into a sort of self-help session. And I think it's one of the things that we have in common is that we do lose a lot of sleep over making sure we get things right for clients and doing the right thing.
Welcome back to Digital Marketing From The Coalface. Um, the subject that we're going to have a chat about today. And by the way, we're not live casting stream thinking this either. We experimented with the last one and we are, I think we've decided from episode one hundred onwards, we're going to record the podcast. So people that like to watch podcasts. But we, we decided that the Heath Robinson setup we had was a was a bit too Heath Robinson it was just a bit rubbish.
And David does need aggressive airbrushing post-production. So you know.
There's that. That's right.
I don't know why I'm being cheeky now because I have no idea what this is about. So I'm only making things worse for myself, you know?
So we start these podcasts and sometimes I have a feeling that there's, there's got there's mileage and that we might, um, get an interesting discussion.
It's not happened yet. It's, I think.
It's generally, I think, um, you know, I've enjoyed it. It's good to hear that you haven't um noted, but I think I'm not sure this one might be very short. But you know, when we were doing a revamp on our on our website recently, so like a lot of businesses, we, um, from time to time take a good long, hard look at ourselves and try and figure out whether, excuse me, whether what we're saying to people in our, on our own website, read evolution dot com is, is correct. Are we confusing people? So for a long time, we've been sort of working with the strap line that, you know, we help businesses grow, which is fine. And I think like most, um, savvy business owners, we recognise that what we say on our homepage isn't necessarily the most important aspect of our website. Because when somebody's looking for website management, they might, they'll land on a particular page if they're looking for Joomla development, HubSpot development, if they're looking for help with content marketing content strategy, they land on the relevant page of our website and get the information that they're looking for. It's called inbound marketing. It's achieved using search engine optimisation, etc. and it works. But, you know, people still want to sort of get a feel for what you're about. And, you know, most people when they go to a website, if they find a page that's answering a question and helping them, they'll quite often then click through to the home page just to get a better feel for the business. They might look at the about page to find out what the story is.
Yeah. And it is the most visited page on our website, isn't it?
It is now. It didn't used to be. I mean, I think now what is SEO page used to be a lot to have a lot higher number, a much higher number of visitors. But it's a very competitive search term. We lost the rankings that we had for it and never bothered to try and get them back. And we'll leave that to the the Neil Patel's and the the others. They can yeah, they can have it. They can gift it to them. Yeah. Uh, but.
But it is, it will be for a lot of people listening. Sorry. Yeah. But, you know, it's one of those overlooked pages. I think, um, it's like the about us page. A lot of people go there to contextualise the information they found elsewhere, and to make sure that you seem like a safe bet and all of that good stuff. Yeah.
That's right. So when we took a long, long, hard look at our website, we decided to have a play around with the messaging. Like, like all, you know, sensible companies do play around with it, experiment, do some conversion rate optimisation, see if the message that we're using now resonates better. You know, I mean, all right, we maybe should have left the old message there and shown fifty percent of people this and fifty percent of people that, but we just decided to have a punt and change, change the messaging. Yeah. Pretty much, you know, we did it as a sort of bit of groupthink. And we, we all kind of put our brains together and we came up with this little, um, novelty way of explaining what we do. We decided to kind of just keep it very simple. So it's very much the message is very much about all the wonderful things we do with websites such as it's too much hilarity upstairs, isn't it? Too much enjoying themselves instead of working. ER um, so we talk about the fact that we um design websites, create websites, market websites evolve websites. We also talk about the fact that we rescue websites. And I thought because we've had a few conversations over the last few weeks and got some new clients as a result of those conversations. Talk about that aspect of what we do a little bit. You know, like I said, there might not be mileage in this, but we'll give it a go. A lot of the time, um, we pick up the pieces that the idiots have left behind.
Yep. And that's half the audience.
And it annoys me because, you know, business owners get sort of abandoned by people who build them. Websites modify websites, they do all kinds, all manner of things. And I know we've covered in other podcasts, we've covered different aspects of what I'm driving at. But this idea of being a rescue agency, um, I don't know. It's probably not that unusual. We like a car analogy. You know, if you know, you've had bother with your car and eventually you started going to dinner at garage, which is local to us here in Aboyne, and you've had great service from them, I think. I think you told a story in one of the previous podcasts where someone had quoted you a hundred quid to service your car, and they quoted you five hundred quid and you went to them because you just knew they were going to do the real, the real deal, the proper job. Um, and I think now you're, you know, somewhat, I know it's not handy from home, but when you're in the office is you've somewhat settled on the fact that these guys will take ownership of problems and solve them for you, you know, for a price or whatever. Um, and that's a good thing. So where, you know, in web land, um, we are probably, uh, respected, I would like to say like to think rather, uh, as an agency who will take ownership of a problem. Figure it out and fix it. But I'm also trying to. I'm not really just here to, you know, blow a trumpet.
This is how cool we are.
Yeah. That's right. We're not here just to blow our trumpet. Um, I'm here to sort of talk about and try and understand and pick into, dig into rather why so many businesses seem to finish up in this situation where, you know, like some idiot is looking after their website or it's, it's just awful from every angle you look at it. And I don't I don't necessarily mean from an aesthetic point of view, I mean, yes, aesthetically, technically, from a search engine optimisation point of view, from a messaging point of view, the underlying software being out-of-date. It's just like in this day and age, why are we still getting so many opportunities? And just half an hour ago, we had a conversation with a potential new customer who has been, um, passed from pillar to post and has a website which is just frankly awful, has been basically broken, potentially maliciously. And, you know, and they're just kind of like, please, can you help? You know.
Yeah, please rescue us. Yeah.
You know, and why should they trust us? I mean, they just found us. They searched in Google for a website management company, found us and they're having a conversation and, um, you know, who knows whether, you know, she'll actually get back to us with the access details we've asked for so we can start sorting things out. But how are businesses and credible businesses at that finishing up in this parlous situation? That's what I'm asking.
Well, I guess it's primarily because they don't know, do they? I mean, I think a lot of this stems from and we've seen it quite a lot recently. You're absolutely right. People who, like you say, have had an agency or a freelancer or whatever, looking after their website and just not sort of doing a decent enough job of it. But you have to know what a good job looks like to know that your agency aren't doing one. And I think one of the things that I keep running up against is, against, you know, um, like it was sort of just alluding to people who are doing SEO for somebody or, you know, oh, we have a digital marketing agency already. And that digital marketing agency is doing some link building or something, but they're not looking at, you know, what is the messaging on the site? Like? What is the sort of experience like for users, how, you know, when we're driving traffic from a specific keyword on Google, um, what are we doing with that traffic once it hits the website? What are we giving them is the information that we're providing useful. They don't ask any of those questions. They just do the sort of surface level thing, which is like, oh, look, we've got you more traffic. Oh, look, you know, you know, we're kind of getting you more exposure on these keywords and there's no sort of joining up of the dots. But unless, you know, to expect that, that can probably seem like a good job. I mean, the car analogy is a good one because if you don't know anything about cars and you take your car to a bad mechanic and they say, oh yeah, you know, um, your wheel bearing was going and loads of your suspension needed replacing. So I did it all for you. And that's a thousand pounds. You may well nod your head and think, oh, fantastic. I'm really glad they caught that. Not realising that, you know, there was a deeper, different underlying problem that they've completely missed or whatever and you just don't know. I think I feel for a lot of business people, especially people that we've spoken to recently who think they're getting a good deal or have been getting a good deal and didn't really realise that what was being done wasn't particularly useful. Because, yeah, I mean, how are you supposed to know that there's no sort of I don't know, nobody teaches you this stuff. And to be fair, it's not or it didn't used to be part of the sort of critical skills that you needed to run a successful business. I think it sort of is now.
But yeah, yeah, I'm struggling a little bit to, to kind of tease out, um, the essence of what I'm trying to drive at. I think, I think it's, you know, it's very, it would be very easy for this to turn into a bit of a rant about rubbish agencies and how people get like a bad deal off people. But there are lots and lots of very, very good agencies out there who do a thorough and great job. Um, and some agencies, I think, do what they think is a thorough and great job. And it's with the best of intentions and it's coming from the right place, but it's not really a, um, a core service that they provide. Therefore they're kind of more in the category of having a go at the bits they don't get. You know, any agency is capable of that. I mean, any agency is capable of overstretching their capability over reaching.
And also of oversimplifying, I think it's very easy to persuade yourself that this stuff's dead easy and dead straightforward. You know, like what even is SEO, for example? It's just like write some content and make it rank on Google. Right? And it's that simple. And yeah, I think people do sort of lead themselves down that into that trap.
So in the spirit of trying to give, um, business owners, marketing managers something to chew on, um, from this, um, inane drivel. How about we talk about what you talk about better options when it comes to having websites, you know, to owning a website. And the first thing I would really look at is although, um, a piece of software like WordPress, which squillions of websites are built on, I think it's the most popular website builder. Um, not amongst our devs, but anyway, yeah. Um, I mean, they, they know their way around it like the back of their hand, but they don't like it. But you know, that's neither here nor there. I don't suppose. Um, so I think one of the first things I would say is avoid the self-hosting route. I think there are reasons to have a self-hosted site, i.e. you download WordPress, you get a designer to do their thing, you get content, people to do their thing, but ultimately it's on a server somewhere that you are responsible for. Even if you're outsourcing that to an agency like us, uh, you're still ultimately responsible for that server, making sure that it's backed up, making sure that there's a contingency in place if things go wrong, all that sort of thing. And I do wonder if people should, especially smaller businesses, um, if they should just avoid that and go for the SaaS or software as a service option where you build your website inside the ecosystem of, uh, a piece of software or rather a service like HubSpot or Wix or Squarespace or Duda or webflow, all of these great products, which basically take away all of the nonsense side of websites, the techy stuff, and give you a tool that lets you create pages, add content, add images, videos, files, downloads, whatever you like, and focus all of your efforts on that side of things instead of like the person we spoke to half an hour ago, who basically can't do any of the things that she needs to do.
Because.
Because the technology doesn't work and there's nobody she can turn to because it's a self-hosted website hosted with what it sounds like some morons built by an idiot and and potentially compromised. Hacked. Do you know what I mean? What an awful situation it feels to get in. I mean, we'll rescue the situation for her if she wants us.
But it could have been completely.
Avoided. It didn't have to happen in the first place, I guess is what I'm driving at.
I think it's interesting because I think there's a certain amount like it sounds nice, doesn't it? Say, oh, I have a tech stack, and these are all the different things that sort of make my website run and that feels quite nice. But yeah, I agree with you. I think there's a sort of economies of scale thing going on here where, you know, ultimately, if you sort of if you say, instead of doing all this hard work myself or finding somebody else to do it for me, I'll just go to HubSpot who are already doing it for millions of people and just pay them fifteen quid a month, and they'll sort the whole thing out. For me, that is quite an attractive proposition. I guess there must be a downside, though, right? I guess you lose some flexibility and some freedom.
Yeah. I mean, mainly if if you need the website to do something particular, uh, where, you know, a custom piece of a piece of, uh, some custom coding is needed and you need to, yeah, just create some sort of functionality that that particular software as a service SaaS offering doesn't provide, then yes, you're, you're kind of between a rock and a hard place, but there's usually a way around that.
Yeah. I was going to say because, I mean, we've done some relatively complicated things, like even building things like calculators for clients and that sort of thing, haven't we? I'm trying to think of an example of, of where we have a client, where what they need online is so complicated that they couldn't use a SaaS offering.
Um, it's hard to say. I mean, for example, uh, we build websites using all sorts of systems like say Joomla, HubSpot, WordPress, a little bit of craft. Um, but, um, certainly some of the Joomla based websites that we've built, we've tapped into some really nice add ons like Pokemon, for example, which is a really sophisticated document management system, which basically, you know, for a few hundred quid, you upload it and you've got a document management system, right? Now, if you are working with a different piece of software, like say, for example, I don't know what Wix does, but say your website was built with Wix and you decided you needed a whole section of your website for downloads so people could get access to things and search it. And there might, there may be a solution, but let's assume there isn't. Um, you know, then you could do something really simple like, uh, use a subdomain so you could create like docs dot acme engineering dot com and install a piece of software, just providing that functionality on a, on a separate subdomain. You could still then have your main website, your marketing tool, um, on a, on a piece of software that's kind of, you know, I don't know if there are any, um, just changing the subject slightly, but I don't know if there are any examples. And if anybody knows, then I'd be delighted to hear from you. Any examples of these SaaS companies going, um, going belly up?
That's weird because that's exactly what I was about to ask you, which is just about longevity, right? Which is like, surely the other argument is that if you put all your eggs in sort of like Hubspot's basket or Salesforce's basket, or I'm trying to think of some off the top of my head. But yeah, any of those sort of.
Any of the ones I've mentioned several times, you've done.
Well, you know, it's, it goes in one ear. Um, yeah. I mean, I assume you're then completely tied to them if they go, if their stuff does go down for whatever reason, they have an outage or whatever your website is going down to. And I guess also like if they just one day say, right, we're not doing this anymore, you just lose your website. How does that work?
Yeah, I think the chances of that are slim, but not, um, not beyond possibility, I suppose. Um, I guess the way around that is to, um, make sure that you pick an established player who's, who's, who's, um, you know, who's, who's, um, well established. An established player who's well established.
How about that? Insightful. Yeah. Yeah.
That's good England, isn't it? It's only the very best. Yeah, I think so. Um, I HubSpot likely to go pop anytime soon. I very much doubt it. I mean, an organisation like HubSpot might downsize. They might have to get rid of people as they did recently. Not too long ago, they got rid of eight or nine hundred people, didn't they, as most of the big tech companies have been doing. But, you know, there's loads of options. I mean, Google, they provide a tool. I've never used it, but they provide a tool for building and hosting websites. I don't think Google are going bust anytime soon. Well, squarespace Keanu Reeves, is he one of the backers? Is he on squarespace or did he just use it for his motorbikes website? Yeah, I'm not sure. Remember the advert? Anyway, that was good. Um, uh, you know, Wix and others. Uh, and one we're speaking to one on Friday, the guys at Doodah.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, yeah. There is a story on their website of how they arrived at that name Doodah. And it is something to do with dude.
But I.
See yeah.
Still uniquely porno, but.
Yeah, I don't know. It's um, but that's a SaaS offering. And, you know, they're basically saying to us, look, you know, if people come along to you and they haven't really got the budgets to go for a full design and build and, um, you might say do it properly, then their option, their offering is, is cost effective and um, worth considering. So happy to look at it. I mean, we already, um, build in the HubSpot ecosystem.
We do, and we like HubSpot.
We're not, we're not adverse. I said that on purpose. We're not adverse to using SaaS tools. I just think it's funny when people say adverse instead of adverse, but.
It's all right. We could play, um, we'll play slip up bingo next time. Um, so is that it then? That's the sort of answer to all of your, your tech woes is just sort of outsource things to a third party.
I don't know, I'd be interested to know where the industry is going. There is there is a massive industry, um, very lucrative business to be in. Still, I think around supporting people who create self-hosted websites.
Because they go wrong.
WP engine, for example, is a hosting service who are dedicated to helping people successfully host WordPress websites, automatic updates, whole line of things. Um, you know, we use Linode for a lot of our dev, um, for a lot of our servers. And so we've got, you know, we've got infrastructure with them. Um, yeah. And so there's, there's a lot at stake for a lot of people. I mean, what are we paying? We pay a small fortune for cPanel, which we run on some of our servers, which is, which was now I think now I think cPanel is I think it was Akamai or somebody who bought Linode. Um, but I'm thinking I'm sure cPanel were bought by somebody, um, for lots of money. Now that software only exists to make servers easy to manage by, um, by people who are not necessarily, uh, experienced sysops. I would always recommend that you do have an experienced sysop to help you look after your servers if you go down the Self-hosting route. So I don't know. Um, I did read an article recently about, about the whole idea of SaaS based content management systems, and it seemed that the only strong argument in favor of Self-hosting was the absolute control that you have. It's on your server. You can do whatever you want with with that server.
It is interesting though, isn't it? Because it's like the whole like Microsoft versus Apple debate that people are always having about how Microsoft give you more control. I mean, in real terms, using a platform like HubSpot or Squarespace or Wix, you can still create pretty much anything you want to. It's not like you're actually limited, really, is it?
I agree, and I think it's, I think it's definitely the case that that people get really get hung up. Yeah. Um, you quite often will find, you know, marketing people, for example, who worked for company A and moved to company B, and with company A, they used WordPress and because they got to use WordPress and they got used to it. And then therefore, you know, in their mind, WordPress is the best tool for the job. It doesn't mean it is, it just means that they can use it. Um.
So there is a weird sort of tribalism to our industry, isn't it? Because you do hear this a lot. People are sort of like evangelists for one platform or the other. And you just think what you're actually saying is you've had a good experience with this and you kind of understand how it works and it makes you feel safe. But that doesn't mean it's the best tool for the job, really.
Well, not only that, there isn't the best tool for the job when it comes to content management systems. I think some are more sophisticated than others. Um, but ultimately, um, you know, I'm always concerned when people focus on the content management system, you know, we need a new website and it must be built in WordPress because WordPress is best for SEO, for example. You hear that.
And I think there's a certain there's a certain irony to saying this because we are doing a podcast episode about this. But yeah, people almost use it as a sort of distraction or excuse. It's like you're not doing the real work because you're messing about picking the best content management system or like making sure that you're using it. It's like if you spent that time actually publishing content, it would be much better served. You'd get much better results from that than sort of sitting there obsessing or weighing up different systems.
Yeah. That's right. Um, so, so back to the subject of rescuing websites, should we, do you think when we find people in situations where they are being held hostage by some geeks or some idiot who's, who's, uh, built their website in some obscure system or even in a well-known system like WordPress, but has somehow made it so that they have to be in charge of it. You know, it's what I'm driving at is this this kind of idea of, you know, people coming to us needing rescuing? It's usually because somebody has been a bit of a dick somewhere along the line. Yeah, absolutely. You know, the way to to avoid that going forward would be to, you know, to migrate them away into some sort of SaaS package, perhaps.
Yeah. Where you can never be held hostage again. Right. Because I think that's a really good point. As a, as a business owner, the one thing you do want to make sure of is that, you know, if things do go sour with your agency, which does sometimes happen, that you're not in any way beholden to them. I mean, it's not a conversation we have to have very often, but when people do leave, we sort of help them to, to go and find somewhere and, and migrate their site and give them the files or whatever. But if you don't have to do that because they're using something like HubSpot, and it is literally just a case of kind of like, you know, removing someone's access to your account and then you can off you go. That does simplify things a lot.
Yeah. That's right. I mean, we, you know, from time to time, clients do leave us. That's just only that's only a normal part of business. And we, you know, we, we go out of our way to make sure that that, you know, transition to another agency perhaps is seamless. You know, we don't want to mess with people's businesses. Whereas the people, the person we were speaking to earlier today, and it sounds like somebody is maliciously trying to damage their business, which is just crazy. And, you know, and therefore, you know, they need they need rescuing, which like I say, we, you know, we, we've over the years, we have rescued many, many bad situations and turned them around and given people a very positive experience because it's almost like in our industry, you know, when I hear about things like that, I almost feel like that's not right. That's just bad. It's bad for all of us in this industry that these bad actors are potentially, you know, tarnishing everybody's web guys. Oh God, you know, and like, like hosting companies, you know, like, um, you know, if the people that are that are helping self-hosted website owners host their websites, you know, there's lots of great ones. Um, but it only takes a few bad ones and like websites down more than it's up. And, you know, it just creates this, this anxiety, which shouldn't be there. There's enough things in the world to be anxious about without being anxious about whether your website's still there when you wake up in the morning.
Yeah, sometimes I think it's a bit of a reality check for me, I guess maybe I live a very privileged life, but I don't encounter those situations very often. And then when I do hear about somebody acting like that, I'm like, oh really? People actually act like that. But they really do, don't they? It's childish and it's very strange, but yeah. Okay.
So, um, without wanting to labour this one, I don't like doing really short podcasts, but we've been blethering on now for twenty five minutes. Believe it or not.
I don't believe it.
It's just that, you know, when we were redoing the, um, our home page and, and thinking about what we were trying to offer people, um, you know, yes, we are about business growth. Yes, we're about helping people find new customers online, etc.. But you know, when we started listing out the things that we do, you know, one of the ones I really wanted to get in there was the fact that we rescue bad situations. Yeah. Because, you know, quite often when people are looking for website management services, help with website management. That's what they're really saying. They're saying like, you know, our website's not getting backed up. The software is out of date. This is broken. We need somebody to manage it for us. And increasingly, um, you know, if you look around that, that whole subject, you know, there are, um, you know, there's, there are plenty of people looking for that service, you know, which is one of the reasons that we, that we, um, we decided to, you know, set our stall out in that particular sphere because although we like as a business, we like doing a whole range of things, everything from creating videos, helping with podcasts, writing content, doing search engine optimisation, doing paid search, the whole nine yards. We love, you know, all aspects of it. We do get a buzz out of seeing the relief, if you like, in somebody's face when they realise that we're a safe pair of hands and an organisation that's going to look after them. And I know, I know I've reverted now into, you know, making this, like, sound like all the heroes under the sun. Yeah. We're not, we're just like any other business. We get things right, we get things wrong, but we do give.
Well, I'm not sure...
Give a damn.
Yeah, I'm not sure about that because I think without turning this into a rant, one of the things I do want to articulate is that it's a very deliberate choice, isn't it? It's what it's not easy to do is sort of scale a digital marketing agency by doing this sort of stuff, because taking the time to unpick difficult problems and sort challenging situations out is, as the name implies, sort of time consuming, right? It is hard work and we spend a lot of time wrestling these things down. If you are sat there sort of like racing to your first million or you know, you're trying to turn over fifty million, by the time your agency is four years old, you haven't got time for any of that. So, you know, I'm not sure it is a sort of like all businesses are equally trying hard to do the same thing, because I think there is a certain model and a certain type of agency that simply cannot afford to do what we do and do a proper job. I think they have to, you know, just by dint of trying to scale really quickly, have to just sort of take shortcuts all the time and just accept.
That they're going to piss people off.
Well, yeah, I think that is the model. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you hear about churn a lot and like certain agencies will have like a certain acceptable threshold of churn. It's like, as long as we're not losing more than sort of twenty percent of our clients every year, we're doing a good job or whatever. Or, you know, if we can keep somebody for two years, that's fantastic. And that's sort of the opposite to the approach we've taken. And I think it is hard because you don't want to use a podcast to self-promote, but it is one of those things that does set us, and to be fair, lots of other agencies that take the same approach apart is that we do sort of live for like that analogy you said earlier, you know, you're the garage that does a proper job rather than just doing thirty break checks a day and fifty oil changes a day and that sort of thing. We make less money like this, for sure, but we do get to sort of go to bed at night knowing that we've done a decent job and not sort of phoned it in. But yeah, I mean, they're just decisions at the end of the day, aren't they?
Do you sleep easy at night.
Yeah. Do you sometimes. Not sometimes not when like there's things bothering me about client work and that sort of thing. But yeah, generally.
Yeah. We've spoken about that before haven't we. How we, you know, I think again, back to this idea of helping businesses, rescuing bad situations with tech and websites and things like that, you know, and trying to communicate, I suppose. I mean, people listening to this will just think blah, blah, blah.
But it's turned into a self-help session.
You're right. It is. I mean, we do have we've had some really good conversations today trying to solve client problems. Yeah. We're not even going to particularly get paid.
No.
Well, putting serious brain time onto looking at the situation that a client or a potential clients in and trying to figure out, you know, exactly what they should be doing. You know.
It always makes me laugh, man, because the work that clients thank us for, the flashy stuff, the stuff that they see and think, oh yeah, that's worth the money. I'm paying for it. It's never the work that takes ages to sort of wrestle down and that you sort of mull over when you sat at home eating dinner or whatever. That's always the stuff that sort of just flies under the radar. But yeah, it is a tricky thing. Without trying to turn it into a sort of self-help session. We do. And I think it's one of the things that we have in common is that we do lose a lot of sleep over making sure we get things right for clients and doing the right thing. So yeah, a harder life like this, I think. Caring.
Oh, Christ. Get the tiny violins out.
Yeah. Um.
Yeah. Okay. Um, I think we've, uh, we've covered that one off, uh, you know, this idea of rescuing bad situations and maybe hopefully, um, giving people some, um, some idea of how to avoid that, maybe looking at, you know, SaaS solutions instead of self-hosted, self-hosted is quite often at the heart of the, the, you know, the rescue jobs. I mean, you can rescue a site that's been built in HubSpot or squarespace or anything else, because again, you can still.
It just gets messy sometimes.
You can still get websites that have been put together by people that really don't know what they're doing. So there's all kinds of issues with them. But, you know, if the underlying infrastructure is sound, that's certainly a better place to be. If you, um, fancy coming on the podcast and saw, um. you know, we don't have to, you know, listen, people don't have to listen to us. Then we'd be delighted to hear from you. Read evolution dot com, any of our contact forms. Um, in the meantime, uh, what are you going to do tonight? It's stopped raining, sun shining. I think I'm going to go and hit some golf balls. Did a sponsored walk at the weekend. Quite a long sponsored walk. And my, uh, my legs are very sore. And I'm thinking, you know, carrying a bag of clubs and walking around a few holes might be a nice way just to stretch my calves.
What's wrong with you? Go home, have a bath. Yeah. I don't know what I'm gonna do, to be honest. Take Vivian for a walk somewhere.
Probably just explain. Vivian's your daughter.
Vivian is my daughter. Yeah. I don't have a dog. Um, but no, she's she's.
Sounded like I'm gonna take Vivian for a walk. It just sounded like, oh, you got a dog.
Oh, well, we put a lead on her. So not dissimilar to dogs in that respect. Do you throw some sticks? Would she chase them? Yes, she would.
All right, enough of this rubbish. Uh, thanks for listening. And, uh, we'll see you next time.