Some Soul Searching And Waffle, Digital Marketing Chat With Alex & Dave – Episode 112

Some coalface stuff. Last week we did actually have quite a few decent enquiries, but it turned out well. At least some of them were a bit transactional. What they were looking for was not right for us. So. So we knocked it back. And it's always hard knocking, knocking opportunities back, even if they're not likely to be that lucrative. You know, you never know where they can lead. When you're doing digital marketing, right, you will get opportunities coming your way, which when you take a good hard look at them, they're not actually quite a good, you know, very good fit for you. And that's fine. You know, being honest with people, going back to them and explaining that's the situation and why is perfectly okay. One of our own, um, values is that we want to be valued by all our customers. And that's not like we want our customers to like us. We want to work with people where we're making a noticeable difference. And That's important to us. Welcome back to Digital Marketing From The Coalface with Alex and Dave. I'm Dave.

I'm Alex, I suppose.

Onomatopoeic. Good word.

Yeah.

You just said we just spoke about that before we started recording.

You were talking about cowping, weren't you?

Yeah. It's a very Scottish, uh, not very Scottish. It's a Scottish word. I don't know if it is used anywhere else.

I've never heard it before.

Yeah. So basically it was a picture that I was sent of a gritting lorry that has cowped whilst gritting because it hits some ice. Cowped. Meaning it fell on its side. Was it, did it itself. Um, so we have jumped feet first into this episode of the podcast.

It's a polite way of putting it with.

A blank sheet of paper in front of us. So it's probably going to be the shortest version of a.

That's it, it's finished.

Podcast that we've ever done. Um, I mean, the reason for it is that we're doing a bit of, we're doing a bit of soul searching ourselves, aren't we? We're kind of, you know, as we come towards the end of another year, um, we're starting to think about, you know, twenty twenty four, think about the year ahead and starting to think about the kind of clients we want to attract, which is common for a lot of businesses. Uh, probably sort of doing a little bit of navel gazing on, you know, what we're actually about, what we're, what we're fundamentally about and trying to achieve. Um, and so whether or not there's enough of interest in that, I'm not sure. I mean, we've decided to lean into Simon Sinek a little bit with this. Start with why, which I think if you get lost with your strategy, with what you're trying to achieve, if you go all the way back to why you do what you do, I think that's a good place to start, so long as you don't simply say like you did to make money, and I know you didn't mean it. The really.

Obvious.

Thing, of course we want to make money because if we don't make money, we can't be an organisation. We can't do any of the great things that we do, and we can't have the fun that we have. So of course we need to make money, but if we just well, from a personal point of view in my life, if I'd just wanted to make money.

There are easier ways.

I would never have left the oil industry. I would have been bored out of my box, but I would have. I would have stayed with it because I was earning fantastic money. And so it isn't just about earning money. And that's a whole new subject, I suppose. But we decided to start with why? Now I can't read the whiteboard because it's behind me, and if I turn away, then people won't be able to hear me. What a what a catastrophe. That would be a travesty. Um, so looking at our wise, let's just kind of pick through them because I think anyone listening to this, you know, the person listening to this, um, you know, they might be able to identify with what we're doing. You might be able to identify with the process we're trying to go through to really get to the essence of, of why we do what we do, how we do it. And then the what. So, you know, the Simon Sinek thing is, why do you do what you do? How do you do it? And what do you do? The what? SEO, PPC, content marketing.

Web development, web.

Design, all that stuff that's there, the what's. And there kind of like a given because we couldn't be a digital marketing agency without those. What's.

Although you'd be surprised how many there are out there.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, the outsourcing brigade. Yeah.

But uh, yeah, no, and it's quite interesting because I think I'll preface this by saying when you initially said Simon Sinek. Sinek, um, and you sort of how, what why? I sort of internally rolled my eyes. Why? How easy?

It is important. The order is.

Important. It is important. I've been through a lot of these sort of weird, wishy washy branding exercises, and it's very easy to be very skeptical about them. I think what really helps with this is that it is actually a chance just to be kind of super honest, isn't it? And sort of like drill right down to what's important. And it is quite eye opening. So yeah, the place we came to, I guess with the why is things like solving problems, for example.

So. Right. Just, just we'll do one at a time. Because again, I think people listening to this who are not digital marketing agencies, but they're just why.

Do you do digital.

Marketing? You know, it's like we first and foremost, we do enjoy solving problems. We are problem solvers. Is that really one of our whys? Yeah, I think so. Is it what gets us up in the morning? Yeah.

If I don't get to feel clever about something I've done by the end of the day, it's a bad day.

When was the last time you felt clever. Well, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna put you right.

Every day when I when I spend time talking to you. Actually come away thinking, yeah, I really am the one.

I guess I've got one of those accents. That means that if you speak to me, you go away feeling clever. Because I always sound stupid.

Yeah, it's the accent that does it.

Yeah. I know you've got a northern English accent as well, so.

My accent is a mess, isn't.

It? You haven't got a flat cap on and you haven't got to whip it by your side. So you don't really count you by your.

Whip, by a whip if it helps.

Yeah.

I always wanted a whip. It. Yeah.

People used to always say that to me when I moved to Scotland. And then suddenly I was in a place where my accent wasn't the norm. It was the first thing people used to say. Hey, where's your whip?

It have a funny story. I probably shouldn't tell it, but yeah, for a short while in uni, I was in a Judas Priest parody band called Turbo Whippet. Okay, that's a fact. It's a good band. It was good fun.

It sounds like it was a good band. Is that when you were playing bass?

Very badly, I should add.

Yeah. Yeah. While we're on the subject of bands. Our gig was cancelled at the weekend because of Storm Babette. Now, bear in mind we'd been doubling up on practices, and I didn't go on holiday because we had this gig booked and then it got cancelled. I mean, how dedicated you can.

Be to.

A little pub band.

A pub.

That play for fun. Honestly, um.

Do you get to do it again later? Do they reschedule?

Uh, well, no, I think they're booked up, but they'd already. Or during the conversation about cancelling the gig, they'd said to us, Will you play on the thirtieth? So if anyone listening is actually in the Aberdeenshire area, December the thirtieth, that's the day before Hogmanay.

As you.

Are playing at the Balmoral Bar in Ballater and it'll be a hoot.

You're very fond of pointing out that only two people listen to this podcast. So now you think those two people just happen to be in Aberdeen? Yeah, yeah.

Well, I do know that. Well, I know my mate Graham sometimes listens to it. You can just.

Text Graham and ask.

Gordon from Scottish Enterprise sometimes listens to it. So they might just decide on the Saturday before Hogmanay that they might fancy a little night out and and, uh, you know, come and see Guilty Feet.

There we go.

At the Balmoral Bar.

And that's your plug. You're only allowed one today.

Is that right? Okay. That's it. All right. So this idea of problem solving, um, it does appeal, doesn't it? And do you think that's why when we get gigs coming in, potential gigs coming in and they are very transactional, like our website needs some hosting, which, you know, we don't tend to provide a service like that anyway. We'll do a website management gig if you want hosting and, and, and, but if you just want someone to host your website, uh, that's not for us. No, thanks. We're not interested in that because it's very transactional. It's not really solving a problem unless you've got very specific requirements and you've had loads of issues, loads of problems, and it's been a real headache. We've got one customer, an American company, quite a large company, and we look after them. And when they came to us, they were, uh, I'm going to use another Scottish word. They were in a right guddle. Yeah. Ah, yes. The guddle word. They were in a right. Good. And we sorted it and we gave them a tech stack, which is working fantastically well for them. But you know, we're not doing that for thirty bob a month hosting like you can buy from Fasthosts or GoDaddy or somewhere like that and different, different beast. Um, so yeah, we, we kind of want to help to solve problems. Give me some examples of the kind of problems that we like to solve.

Well, a lot of the time it's around like storytelling and framing, right? So we have clients.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Are problems that we want to solve. Somebody has a software or a solution and they have no idea how to communicate that that software solution exists to people. Um, for example, so we have a lot of clients who come to us because they are struggling to tell the right story. You're looking very confused at the board.

No, no, I'm taking this opportunity because finally you've actually.

Got something.

To turn around and look at the.

Wall. That's fine. You can continue to do that and.

Not listening to whatever you're saying.

I know, yeah. Um, so a lot of it's around framing and storytelling. Um, sometimes it's things like a marketplace is incredibly competitive. Somebody has a solution where there are lots of other big players in that field and they need to find a way of, on a relatively small budget competing with those huge players. Um, that's always an interesting one. Um, also just around the sort of technical side, we have a lot of people who come to us because they've been stung in the past by agencies who have either done no work or bad work. That's actually put the website in a worse place than it started out and need somebody to unpick that.

Um.

Um, I think generally those are the things that make our ears perk up, isn't it? I think, you know, being one hundred percent honest and looking at this from a sort of outsider's perspective, the time when we get really excited about gigs is when people come to us and say, look, we've got this mess, how do we fix it? Or, you know, somebody created this problem for us. What do we do next? Um, those are the things that we actually enjoy doing. Yeah.

Yeah. So are we unique?

I don't know if it's unique. No. Probably not. I think it's different because I mean my only sort of experience out with this is B2C. So I've worked in B2C for like my entire career until I came here. There it is. Much more like everybody already knows the solution to the problem. It's just how well can you execute? And I think most agencies, I would say most agencies operate in that space. They don't try and solve anything complex. It's a known, you know, somebody comes to you and say, how do I market this? You say, well, these are your channels. Where do you want to spend your money? We'll go out and do it. And that's it. It's, you know, cut and dry. I don't think many people want to sort of unpick this really messy problem of, you know, I've built this really complicated software that does this very specific thing. But now I have no idea how to find the eleven people in the world who want to use it and tell them that they can have it for the low, low price of twenty thousand pounds a year or whatever, you know, it's it's in that sort of complex problem solving that I think we do sort of stand apart. Really?

Yeah. And I guess that comes down to, again, thinking about people who might be listening to this. I'm sure that some of the people listening will identify with this, um, need almost. Yeah. Need to. It's partly show people how good you are, but see a situation that probably annoys you. So for example, using a car analogy.

Well, I never.

If you're a, a really good mechanic, say like one of our customers who they specialise in, in classic Astons, right? And they tell some amazing stories about Aston Martin, Aston Martin DB five that has had its chassis repaired with a folded out baked bean can, you know, and, and, and other stories. Um, you know, they, they generally used to call these cars. Um, it was their terminology, so apologies in advance. Shiny wankers. So basically cars that look great, but actually when you went underneath. Yeah. And oil leaks and, and, you know, they would take a project like that and make it right. And I think the world is full of people who are like, have a go heroes. Yeah. And you know, yeah, I can sort that for you. Yeah, we can do that for you, etc.. And I guess businesses like ours, and I'm thinking probably some of the people listening to this, their businesses will be the same. First of all, there's like a. Oh yeah, because you see yet another case of somebody who purports to do what you do, um, doing something for a customer who's, who's spending their hard earned cash and getting a bloody awful result because the people didn't really know what they were doing. And we kind of relish the the opportunity, if you like, to, to make good the ills a bit sins of our fathers, I suppose. But we genuinely do. The only challenge with that is quite often. And again, I'd be interested if other people had had this experience as well. They've already spent their money or the lion's share of their money with the idiots who haven't done a good job and then, you know. Yeah. And then you have to kind of like work on a very tight budget to put things right. That's slightly irksome. But broadly speaking, you know, rescuing, I don't know. Is it is it? It's not just a male thing, is it? It's just a human thing that we want to help, uh, a fellow human being who's in a situation that we have the power to resolve.

Yeah, yeah. It's a I think it's.

A human need then.

Yeah. I think if you drill right down to it like that, it's purely ego driven as well, isn't it? You want to be the saviour, you want to ride in on the white horse and say, I fixed this problem. There is an element of that to it for sure. But yeah, I think it's a very human need to want to help people. Yeah. When you have the solution.

So part of our why then in our business, and I guess other businesses as well, listen to this would be, you know, part of our why is we want to satisfy our some of our most basic human requirements, human needs.

Yeah, absolutely.

Probably.

Yeah. I think as well, actually just jumping off that, I think one of the other things, because one of the other things that's written on that board is like being creative, right? And I think that's another like deeply seated human need for me is I really like gigs that give me the opportunity to tear the rule book up and say, right, I'm going to do something completely different. Like, how can we tell this story completely differently? How can we frame this in a way that isn't like what everybody else is doing? And I think that sort of need to sort of, I don't know, destroy things and start again is, is quite sort of fundamental to it as well.

Do you think that's one of our whys.

Potentially.

Why we do what we do? Because we like to.

Sort of break, Break! Shit that isn't broken. Reinvent things. Yeah, I think so. I think so.

I'm not sure, I don't know. I'm not sure where I am on that one. I'll think about that. I shall ponder it because, um, what does it actually say. What does the actual bullet point say?

It says enjoy being creative business people actually.

And I think that's, I think that's something that maybe, um, I think it takes a while sometimes when we get an engagement for people to recognise that we are not here because we know HTML and we know SEO, they're just tools and tactics. We do what we do. Again, this is part of our why because we want to help good businesses to prosper, and we want to try and dig in and find out what where the problems are. Um, before we start, you know, coming up with solutions, which goes right past the, the, the how, right all the way to the. What? Because if you list in our. You know, if you list our. What's PPC, SEO, content marketing, website management, content management systems, customer relationship management systems. It's like me, me, me, you know, it's like, yeah, everybody does that. Everyone, any, you know, any decent organisation, decent agency will do all that shit probably. Um, yeah, again, you know, I'm, I'm not pretending that we are unique. I mean, we're doing this exercise because we're trying to, as a lot of organisations do, we're trying to figure out why we are unique or what, what makes us unique. And, you know, it's, it's disconcerting if you go through that exercise and I'm not saying we've done this, but you can go through that exercise and.

Actually there.

Isn't there isn't anything. Yeah, but but, you know, that's not a bad thing to know that because, you know, you were talking earlier on, you pointed out a website that some, somebody, you know, who's started a new business, a new agency business and, you know, annual and they've put all the usual tropes on there. You know, we care about our clients and.

We're led by experts.

We go, we go the extra mile, we really care. And it's just like, Jesus Christ, you know, if you don't automatically do all of that stuff, then don't even think about starting a business in the first place, like stating the things that you that are a given, you know, I'm starting a new garage, we fix cars. I'm gonna that's my logo.

We really like cars.

We, you know, we, you know, we'll make sure we put the right amount of oil in your car dot com. You know, it's like, it's like, yeah, we're kind of expecting that.

But it's tricky. And I mean, maybe I'll out myself as quite naive here, but I think it's tricky because, you know, when you start doing these sort of exercises, I mean, what you were saying earlier about problem solving and about helping people figure out tricky things and this, this whole thing that if you run a company that can do all that complicated stuff and you're surrounded by pretenders, one of the most difficult things about it is you can never say exactly that. You can never say, oh, but actually we can do it for real. You know, we're not like other people in our industry. I think it's quite complicated to sort of drill down to a place where you can articulate that difference in a way that isn't just you being like me too, me too. You know, I'm different too. Because that is where it gets to, isn't it? I think certainly in agency land, most agencies portray themselves in a way that is very like. You read what they write about themselves and you just think, oh, Jesus. Like, you know, you and everybody else really care about their clients. You know, that's not a value add.

Yeah.

So yeah, it's tricky. I think it's a very worthwhile thing to, to spend time agonising on, isn't it? This sort of stuff.

Oh for sure. Yeah. What was the the third bullet point.

Uh see the wood from the trees.

Yeah. Yeah. That's I think that's an interesting one. Um, I think we often, we can often recognise when we get an opportunity to work with an organisation and the senders, whatever information they can send us when we get that information through, it's quite often pretty apparent that they're lost. Yeah. And they can't see the wood from the trees there. They will think that their, their design is, is the problem though, you know, like whether it's web design or whether it's any sort of any aspect of their communications, um, you know, the design aspect isn't very good or, or it's because we're using a certain web technology, we're using WordPress and we should have use HubSpot or the other way around. And, you know, they look at all of this stuff and then it becomes pretty clear that they're not, they're not doing their, you know, the whole, the whole Simon Sinek start with why thing. They're kind of just, I don't know, they're just, they're just lost. They're in the weeds and being able to articulate that to them and, and get them into a place where they recognise that a lot of the stuff that they've been agonising, agonising over is, is the easy stuff. And, and like, forget about that for now. Let's, let's, let's figure out what, you know, who your ideal customers are what you should be saying to them. What are they looking for? All of that. All that kind of stuff is often being missed. I just feel like I'm waffling.

Well, no, it's really interesting. And I think it's listeners who don't realise how much we hate each other on a deep and fundamental level will think, I'm blowing smoke up your ass here, but it's one of the things that I noticed straight away when I came here is that you do this thing in meetings that I, I used to find really awkward and frustrating and now respect massively, which is that you will ask people really awkward questions in the middle of like they'll be explaining about how like you say they, you know, they've been massively successful. If it weren't for the fact that their logo was purple instead of green, and you'll ask them a question that is like way more about the sort of the fundamentals of the business, like who do you actually think your target audience are? Or like, what are you actually trying to do here? And what's the point of it all? And they'll stop and they'll be really awkward because, you know, you've interrupted their flow and you've sort of also made them question their sort of like veneered picture of reality that they've created for themselves. A little comfort bubble where they're like, this is the problem. And as soon as I get a web agency who can make my logo green and not purple, everything will be fine. And you unpick that and people really don't like it. Initially, I don't think. I think very quickly they realise that actually they do have to work through that whole exercise. But I think it's in there. It's in that sort of, let's actually dial back a step and ask more fundamental questions that you actually get to the root of the problems. Because I think so much of, especially in marketing, so much of what we do is, you know, sort of a marketing director or a marketing manager will come along and say, I want X, Y, Z. And you just sort of instinctively because you want to make them happy. You're like, yeah, we can do that. And you don't stop and think, actually, you need to ask them why they're doing that. But that is where the real value comes from.

So yeah, um, I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll take the compliment, especially the bit about irritating people. Um.

Well, it's true though, people really don't like being challenged on this stuff, do they. I don't think maybe not.

No. Because they, they maybe think they're going to have a conversation about changing the colour of their logo or using a different content management system. And we're kind of like, well, none of that matters really until we understand something more fundamental, I suppose. Um, I mean, I certainly don't do it to try and annoy people. No. And I think, I think because I've worked in, you know, I've started this agency twenty years ago. So I suppose I, I am guilty of being, um, maybe a bit blasé sometimes about some of the aspects of successful, successful, um, online presence, if you like digital footprint, um, like, you know, I often say, yeah, any credible agency will make sure that you've got a great website that works well and performs well and all the rest of it. You know, I mean, generally, generally. Well, it kind of isn't, I suppose. No. That's right.

Um, I mean, I get what you mean. I think one of the things that's interesting though, isn't it is back to the what stuff, the tactics is that all of that stuff is actually quite simple and I think this is sort of like the realisation I've come to is that all of that stuff is really quite easy. What's really hard is doing it right. And what dictates whether or not it's done right is whether you've spent enough time thinking about those fundamental questions, the sort of why the what you're actually trying to accomplish. And people do like to skate over all that and go straight for the sort of, oh, look, let's do this, let's do that without asking themselves those questions. And it doesn't work. You can be the best PPC account manager in the world, but if the fundamental direction of travel is wrong, it's not going to work.

Okay. Um, so we are going to continue to sort of agonise through this process to try and to try and make sure that we're not just keeping doing what we've always done and expecting a different outcome. Um, which is, I know, a hackneyed turn of phrase and, and well used, but, uh, you know, we kind of it's like a, like baring our soul, aren't we? And we were very good at what we do. But we're not so good at what we do that we're blind to like looking for maybe not a change of direction, or to make sure that the direction of travel that we're on is the right direction of travel. Um, because, you know, everything's changing so quickly and I don't just mean, oh yeah, Google's algorithms changing quickly or digital marketing is changing quickly. I mean, marketing has changed dramatically. But, you know, it's still all about the fundamentals. And I'm not entirely convinced that we are doing as good a job for ourselves, if you like, as we are for, you know, for, for our customers, our clients. And that sort of troubles me that that's, that's where this all came from. Just kind of.

We have.

This idea that we kind of somewhat plateaued and we want to figure out how we kind of nudge things up to the next level.

Yeah. When we have conversations like this all the time about clients. We very rarely turn it back in on ourselves. I think that's, again, because it's slightly uncomfortable to do so. And you actually have to grapple with things that are quite challenging. But yeah.

Okay. Okay. Um, is there anything else on the board that isn't too revealing that we want to discuss?

Well, the last bullet point is that we like being recognised. I suppose we can chew on that for a bit.

Yeah. Well, we said that right at the start. It's kind of a basic need, isn't it? Because if if if we are just turning the handle producing, you know, unremarkable work and, and yeah, not really caring, then we're not going to get recognised because, you know, at a fundamental level, we one of our values is that we, you know, one of our own, um, values is that we want to be valued by all our customers. And that's not like we want our customers to like us. We, we want to work with people where we're making a noticeable difference, and that's important to us. And so it isn't just about wanting to be liked. It's about something much more fundamental than that.

I think it's probably quite reassuring as well. Like if we're being really cynical and honest, you know, if I was going to a mechanic and that mechanic said, look, I'm trying to win the world championship for best ever service. Um, you know, I'd be much more reassured by the fact that he was, you know, in it for a reason and trying to gain something than I would if he was just like, yeah, I'm just here because it's my job, you know? It's, you know, yes, it's sort of egotistical. But the fact is, the fact that we're, we like being recognised means that we are going to do better work than people who don't care about that.

Okay. Um, just some coalface stuff. Last week we did actually have quite a few decent enquiries. We did. Um, but it turned out well. At least some of them were a bit transactional and a bit kind of what they were looking for was um, not right for us. So. So we knocked it back. And it's always hard knocking, knocking opportunities back. Um, even if they're not likely to be that lucrative, you know, you never know where they can lead. Um, I don't know why I mentioned that other than, you know, the coal face.

Yeah.

Digital marketing. Then when you're doing digital marketing, right, you will get opportunities coming your way, which when you, if you take a good hard look at them, they're not actually quite a good, you know, very good fit for you. And that's fine. You know, being honest with people, going back to them and explaining that's the situation and why is perfectly okay.

It's just important to remember that there's a massive opportunity cost to taking those as well, isn't it? Because it is very tempting sometimes just be like, yeah, sure. You know, we'll do whatever it is, you know, whatever it is that they've come to us asking for for three grand a month or whatever. But at the end of the day, you, you drive yourself down a rabbit hole doing that sort of thing for people that aren't going to help you move things forward in a productive way. So, um, yeah, you have to be selective.

That's right. And we did have, We've got an opportunity with a business related to tourism in Scotland, so we're going to do a discovery with them. And just to see if um we can help them with their own um direction. And again a successful business. It's going well, but the business owner sort of stood back from it and thought is, you know, is, is the, are the different things I could be doing is, is this going where I want it to go? What should I be doing? All that kind of stuff.

I think is that is the right time to do your marketing, isn't it? When things are going well and you've got time to step back rather than in a crisis?

What it is. That's right. Absolutely. Okay. Um, well, you know, I think, yeah, that's been a bit of a sort of navel gazing, you know, baring our soul kind of conversation compared to some of the others where we just literally talked about gigs and potential gigs coming our way. But I guess again, just to reiterate, the whole point of it is that, um, you know, because we know all about the, The tactical side of digital marketing. All of the stuff the SEO, the PPC, etc. it doesn't mean that we automatically find the other stuff, which is way harder. The strategic direction, the whys and um, and so forth had. We do find that stuff.

Everybody. It is hard. I mean, I think that's the thing, isn't it? I think the important thing to remember is that everybody has to keep going back and re-examining even people who do it for a living.

That's right. Okay. You've been listening to, um, Dave and Alex waffle and bare their souls on Digital Marketing From The Coalface I think, um, there's nothing else to say, really.

I don't think there is. No. Only that it's a revelation that you still have your soul bartered it.

I know. I'm still waiting for the garage to fall about the tyres. Yeah. Hey.