Need An App But Can't Code? Mike Watson Explains Why This Isn't A Problem - Episode 13

Mike, why don't you introduce yourself and introduce today's topic?

I was hoping just to cover a bit more about the low code. No code side of things. No code tools are software development platforms that allow even non-technical people to build and deploy their own applications without writing a single line of code. So it's an application online that you then take to build a new application. I do work with some e-commerce companies. A good example is a property development company, which I am literally building a SaaS tool for, to help them manage a process, because there wasn't something existed that they wanted. Any company that feels like they don't necessarily fit in with traditional SaaS application. Theoretically, that company can build their own CRM solution, customer relationship management, using a no code tool so they can build a custom CRM solution for themselves.

Today I'm talking to Mike Watson and we're kind of departing a little bit from what we've been talking about on previous episodes of the Digital Marketing From The Coalface podcast. We're going to be looking at, well, actually, Mike, why don't you introduce yourself and introduce today's topic?

Hi, Dave. Thanks very much for having me. Well, today I was hoping just to cover a bit more about the low code, no code side of things going on in digital technology.

I've got to say, with an accent like mine, that is just a nightmare. This low code. No code. Sorry. Carry on.

Yeah. Sorry. So. And I think it does actually have an impact on digital marketing because there's a huge overlap in the potential of low code, no code to impact on the processes of a business, which obviously includes digital marketing side. But we'll maybe discuss that a bit further down into actual practical applications for low code, no code.

And it makes sense.

What is it basically? Well, low code is I try to get the best sound bite here of, you know, somebody else who defined low code better than I could. And they basically said no code tools are software development platforms that allow even non-technical people to build and deploy their own applications without writing a single line of code. What you've basically got is an application, and, you know, a typical application is like a CRM tool or buffer or your accounts package. So it's an application online SaaS tool, software as a service that you then take to, to build a new application in. It kind of sounds a bit meta. You know, you're using application to build an application, but, um, traditionally applications have mentioned like HubSpot, Xero, all these other applications companies typically use are built using software languages. Okay. Software engineers build them with a purpose in mind.

And just before we move on from that, you're interested in this because your business does what that's made you interested in this sort of stuff?

Well, I've been involved in marketing for coming up for thirty one years, so I've kind of grown up with the technology. It's, it's developed along with marketing. So, you know, as soon as social media things came out, I got involved. And as soon as CRM, customer relationship management solutions came out, you know, like HubSpot and I love playing with these things. Dave. I just love seeing a new toy coming out. You get a free, a free account and you get to play with it.

So it's fair to say you don't get out much.

Exactly, exactly. That's my hobby. You should ask my wife. My hobby is SaaS tools. So yeah, but my business then has has evolved. I mean, traditionally I started building websites didn't particularly enjoyable on websites. That sector is now very competitive. And you're.

Very noisy.

Very noisy. So you move on to offering something. It's slightly different, you know, so you move into digital marketing thing, pipeline development, etc.. So I've kind of also I look at that as well, but I much prefer seeing how software tools can impact on a business and how it can sort of streamline business activities and the processes a business has. So it kind of automates things and makes things simpler. So that's, that's what M.w.a digital does is it helps businesses navigate the, um, this SaaS tool marketplace basically.

And the sort of companies you're working with. I mean, you can name names or just talk about the type of companies that you're working with.

And well, um, I do work with some e-commerce companies. Um, a good example, which we may come on again to is a property development company, which I am literally building a SaaS tool for, to help them manage that process because there wasn't something that existed that they wanted. So we are now kind of developing that. So we'll come on to that. Maybe it's a good example to explain, you know, how this can actually impact on a company's day to day, um process development. So um, so it's. Any company that feels like they don't necessarily fit in with traditional SaaS applications. So not everybody. Yeah. HubSpot CRM doesn't work for everybody. Maybe too complicated for everybody. So theoretically that company can build their own CRM solution, customer relationship management using a no code tool. So they can build a custom, a custom CRM solution for themselves.

Yeah. Got you. I mean, when I was doing some research, you know, leading up to us having this chat today, uh, one of the things that I read, well, I kind of paraphrase it a little bit, but writing software, uh, the promises with no code, no code, low code. They are different and we'll probably cover that. The promise is that writing software is as easy as using word. Um, and it's fast. That's that that's the, the panacea, if you like. That's the promise. Would you agree with that?

Totally agree. Because using no code, uh, I don't really look at low code side of things because that implies you've got to understand a bit of coding, right? And I've kind of steered away from that, but using a fairly standard, a GUI graphical user interface, you can drag and drop what you want to happen on your no code interface to make it do what you want it to do. So if a certain thing happens, then this happens. Or if somebody ticks this box and you want this to happen. So it's, it's helping companies evolve their processes. If you like using using technology and customising technology specifically for them. That's a crucial part of it. If they, if they don't fit in the traditional pigeonhole of being able to use something off the shelf like Xero or HubSpot CRM, you can build your own special tool and it comes into its own. If you've got a very specific process, right, you're going to go and design your own accounts package using no code because Xero and its other competitors do a perfectly good, perfectly good job of that. But CRM might be you used to have special needs in the way your how a customer becomes a customer and how, how you develop that customer into long term relationship. You can build that into your own no code version of the CRM solution that you've dealt with.

Okay. I mean, you mentioned there because, you know, we're talking about no code versus not versus, but low code and no code. Primarily, I think today we're talking about the no code option, but the low code. Would it be fair to say that that low code, you do need some coding skills in order to use low code effectively because you, you need to write some code. Um, but it's still faster because of the way it uses libraries and ready made objects and things within the environment, the development environment.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the whole purpose of no code low code is to build things faster and cheaper. And, you know, some of the, the tools, um, you need to understand how code works, you know, the logical process of if something happens, then this needs to happen. So even though you might not be using them using the, the low code side of things, understanding the logic of code, yeah, will make a big impact in how you develop your tool within that tool.

Yeah. I mean, I, I found a stat where Gartner is saying that by twenty twenty four, sixty five percent of software development will be created using low code environments. I mean, you know, they say it as a massive growing market, this idea of either low or no code environments to help us develop the business apps that we need to grow our businesses and work more efficiently.

Absolutely. I mean, if you just look at some of the the recent venture capital investments in no code side of things, I think it's a great benchmark for showing how how this will become, how this will impact on day to day business is it's how money is flowing into this marketplace to develop this marketplace from the venture capitalists and to the to the leading no code solutions. Airtable is the grand parent in the room, right? Airtable has raised more than six hundred million dollars and has got a six billion valuation and is a leading no code solution bubble close behind. It would be more more inclined to be a low code solution. It's raised more than one hundred million dollars to develop its platform. So these are becoming quite mature um areas. And they're attracting a lot of money. Webflow and other low code no code favorite for building websites has raised.

That's right. I've come across that. I've never used it but I've come across it.

Yeah. And it's raised two hundred and fifteen million dollars recently to give it a two point one billion dollars valuation. So there's money flowing into in this marketplace. And if money is flowing into it, these these tools are going to develop fast. I mean, every no code solution has an update upgrade every week. You know, they can supply, do better job, job, do a better job at doing the things that they're doing every week. So they're improving all the time.

Sure. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that occurred to me was that that what these environments do is they make sure that the lunatics are not running the asylum. Um, now, the reason I'm saying that is there's a really good book I read a long time ago called something like I can't remember exactly, but the lunatics are running the asylum. And it was about software development, and it was basically saying that software developers are developing software that the end users either can't use or don't want to use, or it doesn't actually do what the end users needed in the first place. And do you think like the, these environments where, um, people like yourself, people like me, uh, I mean, I used to code in a different, in a different life, but I don't code anymore. but, you know, people who actually understand the business problems that are trying to be solved are creating the apps, using these environments. And ultimately that could help us create much better software.

Absolutely. Isn't it if you if you know what you want a tool to do and you start building backwards, you know, you know what job it needs to do, and you develop it with the functionality into it as opposed to as opposed to as a software developer might think, I'm going to make this broad assumption that the user wants this and hasn't even spoken to the end client and the user. So it makes perfect sense to, to develop these things backwards, to say to yourself, here's what I want this tool to do. And that's what businesses, that's what businesses need to do. They say, well, here's my process. I've got an existing process, either spreadsheet based or paper based, got an existing process. I want to automate this process. And then they can build the process they want based on their own needs using no code tools. That's the whole point of this, that people can build their own applications around their own needs.

Yeah, yeah. And do you think it's it's, uh, do you think it's fair to say that one of the reasons that this is now finding its way and becoming popular and the big money is now supporting it, is because the sheer grunt that's available in, uh, you know, in a, in a normal laptop. I mean, we, we like to use apple machines. So you spend a thousand quid on a laptop and the computing power inside that machine means that, um, it can tolerate software that's not maybe optimised, if you see what I mean. It can, it's kind of because there has to be a trade off doesn't there, with, with these tools where you're going to get an element of, of bloatware in, in amongst the code. But the computing power that we've got now means that, yeah, that don't matter really.

Well, the beauty of this is most of these no code tools are cloud based anyway. So you know, the power your laptop isn't the most important part of this. It's your internet connection. So as long as you are working on a business grade internet internet connection, um, you're laughing. You don't have to worry about. I mean, you could literally be working on a Chromebook because, you know, two hundred and fifty pound Chromebook, which I have done in the past and it does the job perfectly well. It's all about the internet connection and the, the power of these no code tools is in the cloud. It's running on their servers. All you're doing is talking to their servers.

Yeah. Okay. So can you, you know, without naming names, can you give us an example of something that you've either worked on or that you're working on? Like just in broad, in broad terms, the problem that their company had and, and the way that you've gone about creating a solution.

Yeah. Well, there's a couple I'm working on just now, and the one I alluded to before was a property management company. Now this company sources property for investors. You know, they've got a perfectly good paper based system that they then take. So they've gone view a property, a house Essentially, they potentially might source for themselves or their investors, but they've got to analyse the potential return that House is going to give, how much money they've got to spend on it to do it up, what the what the valuation will be after it's done up, how much they're willing to spend, what the rental potential is. So all these figures are floating about. When somebody goes to view a potential investment property. My client decided that he wanted to have a forum, a digital forum that replaced his manual paper based ticket. So he was he was walking around our house going, right, I'm in the living room. Windows are okay. Bedroom. I need to replace two windows in the bedroom or the carpet. So he's picking up all the issues. Then he's got to go back home to his office, put that information into a spreadsheet to analyse what the cost is. So that's, that's how his company worked. Now his the brief was that he wanted to fill in an online forum while he was at the property on his iPad. Tick a few boxes and it would spit out all the facts and figures about the investment potential of that property before he leaves the property. Right now, you can see how much impact that's going to have on the time and amount of properties they could use. View every day. It's going to be a massive labor saving exercise and more than worth building something from scratch, because there's nothing on the market that can do that. Yeah. Excuse me. So we decided we would use a software product called Airtable, which I've mentioned before, which is the by far the biggest player in here, which is looks like a spreadsheet that's got the power of a database. And this is families want an introduction to no code. Airtable is a place to go and have a look. So that's what that's what I can you know if you're going to start somewhere start there. That's why I'm building this application. And so now um, and once app version one, which I'm pretty much finished version two will then. And this is where the integration with marketing comes in. Version two will integrate with his with with his CRM that are using Insightly. So it's a legacy product. We can't change that to, to HubSpot, unfortunately. And MailChimp. So eventually they'll take a couple of boxes. And this schedule for the potential of this property will shoot off to the database of their interested parties where their property, first person to pay a deposit gets to buy the property. So they could do about ten, ten property inspections in a day as opposed to three, you know, literally literally double their output.

And is this viable, do you think because of the lower cost, speed of development, etc., that that we can leverage with this, uh, Lord, low stroke, no code approach?

It wouldn't have been doable without no code tools. Uh, I very much doubt they would have felt the, the cost to develop this traditionally would have been a valuable spend. I mean, you're talking about how much an application cost to build from a piece of string, right?

Absolutely. I mean, it's a. The thing about an application as well, because we do build web apps, um, is as one of our dev says, it's like, it's like having a child. It's like you can build it and it does what you need, but then you need to nurture it. You need to look after it. You need to constantly look at updating it. The frameworks it's built with it need updating, etc.. So yeah, building software is a massive undertaking. And, and like, like you probably do when we get clients with specific requirements, we're looking for off the shelf. I mean, that's our first port of call. Is there something out there that does what you need it to do? Um, and if there isn't, then we're in a position at the moment where we think, right, well, we need to look at, you know, coding it and we'll, you know, use a PHP framework and build a web app that does it. But obviously this, this stuff that we're talking about today is a whole new ball game. Really?

Yeah. Whole new ball game. That's exactly the best way to put it that, you know. We're not saying that software engineers are going to be losing their jobs any time soon. Okay. Um, because these no code solutions are generally written specifically for an internal process for a, for a business. So the load on them, if you like, if you're multiple users, you have ten thousand users using these tools.

So yeah.

It's going to be much, much, much more sensible to, to build a no code solution for an internal process than it is for trying to please ten thousand different users, you know? So you're only using no code for it's very simple. Your structure is very simple. And, and it's just, it's, it's very rigid what you're going to create, but it's, you can only, you're only doing it rigidly because it's exactly what you need.

Yes.

So another example is when we're talking about Examples. Um, uh, a company I've done a lot of work for a lot of years. I was just, I was basically their webmaster for many, many years.

Webmaster for a long time. I am the webmaster.

So they've, they've gone through some changes. Um, they're a membership organisation. And what I'm trying to do is basically drag them into the twenty first century. I mean, you still use, still use, they use spreadsheets for member management and word for issuing their invoices. And you can't really manage an organisation like that because it causes more, so much more admin to manage all these things. So that's what we're doing now is analysing the process of, well, when somebody becomes a member, what needs to happen? Well, you need to issue an invoice. You need to keep them in a database. When, when is that annually renewed? Um, what do they get once they become a member? So again, it comes down to marketing. You know, you're communicating with these these members regularly, but we are going to reduce their admin time by at least a half, at least a half, seventy five percent, just by creating a no code tool membership manager. This is a membership management tool we'll create as opposed to, say, a property management like the last one. And if you go to the likes of Airtable, both of these examples I will be building an Airtable. If you go to Airtable they've got downloadable templates that you can get for free and develop these these free tools. You can see how it works. You can play about with them. And Airtable has a is a freemium model. There's a free a free account, a very good free account. You can do an awful lot with the free account. And so yeah, so that's a, that's another example of, you know, where it's impacting on the process of a business that they would no, where ever would they employ a software engineer and say, please, please build me an application for twenty thousand thirty thousand pounds because they don't have that sort of funding.

Got you. Absolutely. I mean, something you said earlier was that, you know, you used to be involved in the web game. I mean, we still are because it's, um, it's part of what we produce as a, as a digital marketing agency. And so I can understand, I mean, some digital marketing agencies have moved away from the actual building of websites. But one thing I think, which kind of illustrates the no code, um, environment are the tools that have made our marketplace so noisy. I mean, I'm thinking of WordPress, Wix, squarespace, Joomla, Kraft, all of these are effectively either no code or low code environments where without writing a single line of code, you can create what's what on the face of it is actually a decent looking website. You're using templates and you're using code, you know, ready made software objects that you don't have to do anything with. And that didn't used to be the case when you and I started doing this stuff, did it?

Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. And as a new one comes out every day, I mean, WordPress is the grandparent in the room here, and everybody feels like they can take WordPress and improve on it and create a better CRM. I give acronyms, yeah, no CMS.

CMS.

A better CMS. So there's always going to be better. CMS is coming out, but they are they are essentially no code tools for doing one specific thing. And that's building our website. Now, if you think more about no code opportunities. Applications are basically databases, right?

Yep.

So if you if you want your website to have a bit more functionality than just be being brochure aware or whatever, so it says a listing website for a estate agent or something. They can build that database backend using low code tools. Yeah. So that's another, another definite I wouldn't use Airtable for that particular application. But you know, you can take your traditional inverted commas. Um, content management systems build in data of their databases. Anyway, expand on the database side of things to actually make a more, a more interactive tool for your business listings and business listings, second hand car dealers, you know, you can build those things yourself now as opposed to having to enlist, uh, a developer. I wouldn't if, if you had no experience in building, I wouldn't go and try and build a, you know, a car dealer, a car dealer tool yourself. I would still employ someone who knew about these things, but it doesn't have to be a software engineer.

That's right. Totally. I mean, we've we've certainly got a side project which is doing really well and it's being used globally and it generates a little bit of income for us. And there's not a single line of code was written to produce it. We basically took a bunch of tools that exist, glued them together. And it's, and it's, and it's great and it does the job perfectly. And when you think about gluing together, um, even that aspect is becoming easier because the integration tools like Zapier, for example, are making what used to be the really gnarly bit. Like we need that to talk to that. Oh, right. Okay. Get the software engineers involved. Well, even that is now getting taken care of in a no code way, isn't it? With, with, with these integration tools.

Another actor, another acronym are the API, which is what you're talking about is the technology that allows two pieces of software to talk to each other and share the data. That's right. Typical example would be I think a lot of your listeners might be aware of is, how do you connect MailChimp to HubSpot CRM? Yeah, you simply have to paste in a twenty digit number or something from one to the other. That's right. And the data can be shared, right? That's exactly. And so it is this, um, allowing all these pieces of software to talk to each other is making this whole low code thing much, much easier because you can you can connect and you.

That's right.

That's right.

And this and that also goes for mobile apps. I mean, you know, we're talking about like kind of web apps, but you know, you know, you spoke about that, that client of yours who's going to walk around with his or her iPad. And effectively, it's, I don't know if it's built as a website, but as a, as a, you know, you go to it using a web browser, but equally, you could, you can create that as a native app using an awkward look, a no code environment as well. Can't you? I don't know if that's what you're doing.

Not in this.

Particular.

Yeah, not in this particular example. But maybe version four or version five might be built, you know, have a web app. I mean they'll, they'll go to a web address to pick up to pick up the forum. But a lot of the no code tools are specifically for building apps. Now obviously the definition here is application app is short for application, but in this definition, apps are generally run on your phone. Applications generally run on your laptop. That's how I try and define it, although.

Yeah.

Essentially the same thing. But you know, people think of an app, they automatically think of an app for their phone.

They do because we, you know, people will come to us sometimes and say, right, we need an app developing and can see that you've developed apps and we're like, well, we develop web apps. Oh yeah. Isn't that the same thing? It's like, no, it's not. I mean, they're, you know, and then we go into the whole kind of explanation of why it's not the same thing, but in actual fact, you can now build web apps and there are tools which will then turn those web apps into native apps for iOS and Android, etc..

Yeah, there are many of those coming out and they don't seem to be fairly easy to develop. You know, the no code tool, because there's a lot of them popping out from very small development houses. So they seem to be a fairly but they won't last. I think the problem here is with everything, a lot of people are flowing into this marketplace, right? And then they'll we'll get out of our Microsoft to buy, and Google will buy them and to make them disappear or take the technology in-house or let them. I mean, it must cost a lot of money to build an app, a no code app, but you can't start making money from it until it's finished. The usual sort of software conundrum. You invest a lot of money, and so a lot of these apps will disappear fairly quickly, which is why, you know, if if I have a conversation with MD about, well, what apps, what no code application should I use? I'll only look at the ones. There's only six or maybe ten. It's an eighty over twenty rule. So, you know, eighty percent of apps are being developed by twenty percent of the applications, eighty percent of the applications, the nuclear applications are being built by twenty percent of the tools out there, you know. Yeah. There's a, there's a top ten well funded VC money behind them. And you've got to check with these things. You've got to check how funded, how well funded they are before you actually dive in because.

Well that's right.

Yeah yeah, yeah. Your tool. But it's still on their servers.

Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, you really, I mean, we, we used to use a tool and the developers turned around one day and just said, uh, we're done with this. We're not doing it anymore. Now, it was only a comms tool that we use for into, you know, into company communications. And it was a nice little tool. Um, but, you know, the developers just decided that they'd taken it as far as they could and they just turned it off. Yeah. Just like that. And, you know, and that could be a disaster if you've invested. And, and I mean, because a lot of businesses, you kind of alluded to this, a lot of businesses are running, you know, key processes on spreadsheets and a wing and a prayer. And the spreadsheet was written by somebody who retired ten years ago. So like, whatever you do, don't change it. Just use it. It works, you know, and, and that situation is, is something that businesses really need to try and avoid as they move into a, into digitalisation and looking at digitalising their processes. So you don't want to go out the frying pan into the fire and invest in a platform, as you say, that then decides to, um, you know, decide decides to, to quit.

Yeah, it's exactly, I mean, it's a, it's a MD out there. It's, uh, developed a word, a WordPress website and they've found a really good plugin that they think's going to do the job they need. And, but then you've got, if you look at the repository and see it's got five stars, five stars, but it's one guy sitting in his back bedroom building this thing for free because he wants to. And then he gets a job and then poof, it disappears. And the same thing is the same thing is true with with no code apps, no code tools that are being built by some of the best things are being built by these really clever people, but unfortunately, they won't fly. A lot of them won't fly because these people are developers. The people building, these people, building these tools are software engineers. A lot of them are not business people, and they might be the cleverest people in the room, but their tool is not going to develop the way it should do. So you've got to just stick with the ones that are out there. You know, there's another one. There's two main ones. There's bubble and there's Airtable and there's webflow. Those are the three key tools. And if you can't do what you want to do in one of those tools, you know, you maybe.

Are that you're barking up the wrong.

Tree or you maybe need something a bit more specialist, but always do, do, do your due diligence. Because at the end of the day, these people are going to host your data.

Sure. Yeah. I mean, we kind of touched on there the, you know, one issue potential issue is if you excuse me, hang your hat on a platform that decides to go to go and do something else with its life, other people behind it decide to go and do something else with their lives. So thinking about some of the issues with the law code, and I'm a I'm a huge fan, by the way. So this isn't I'm not, I'm not trying to pick fault, but I guess it's fair to say that best practice is still embryonic. We're still kind of learning how really to use these these no code platforms. Um, any, any thoughts on that?

Um, yeah, you're right. And I probably haven't done my due diligence on it either. But you.

Know.

If you, if you build a website for somebody, you always back it up and you always copy, copy the data in case the worst happens. Uh, I'm not actually sure if you can do that at all, if it's even an option on some of these apps. So if I build something in Airtable, I at least want to download the data and have it. Yeah. You know, I can maybe import it back up into a spreadsheet or whatever, or I don't know how it works to be perfectly honest. And you've made me slightly nervous. Now I need to actually go and make sure that.

Yes, I've succeeded.

There is some sort of backup methodology here.

And yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, it's going to be backed into AWS and all that kind of stuff.

The whole Facebook thing down for six hours. Other people are thinking the same could happen to the no code app you're using. Their site could go down And if it's hosting a business critical solution of yours. Um, sorry. There's nothing I can do about it. Wait until it comes up because, you know, literally I'm not hosting it. Somebody else is. So, you know, it depends on how business critical your, your, um, your application. Is that you?

That's right. I mean, I really do feel sorry for, uh, for runners everywhere when Facebook was down because I thought like, Christ, where are they going to post their PBS now that Facebook is down? Uh, I mean, in all seriousness, I mean, there is a kind of cultural change that's required, isn't it? I mean, you mentioned software developers, and I think if software developers embrace the low code and no code, um, uh, what's what we're looking for the word I'm looking for the, you know, um, what's happening in that, in that marketplace. You know, there's, if they can hang their hat on it, then you, if they can change and not just think, oh, I'm a real coder. I don't use these no code, low code that sort of thing. And you can imagine a lot of developers would be in that camp if they can actually hang their hat on this stuff, then fantastic things could happen. And, and stuff can happen really quickly. So but it does require a cultural change, a different way of thinking about software development.

Well, I think one of the things we haven't really touched on is, is the minimum viable product opportunity here. So if somebody has an idea for a business and I'm not talking about.

Brilliant, I.

Like that. I'm not talking about processing your business here. I'm talking about you've got a business idea that's web based and it's, it's appeals to a specific niche marketplace that you work in, say you work in the energy sector, and you want to create a tool specifically aimed at tanker operators. Very niche market, right? But you know, they've got money. You could you five years ago, you might have thought, here's a really good idea, but I'm gonna have to spend fifty grand to develop a tool. Then you realise that's actually not a market for it. Whereas with a no code environment, you can literally create a minimum viable product. Show it to potential customers and say, well, would you pay one hundred quid a month for this? A thousand quid a month for this? Yes. No. Well, I would if you did this, I would. If you did that. You need this functionality. And using low code bubble would be an ideal example for this. Building an actual business application that you would then charge for. Yeah. And then if you're if you are proven to be right and there's a market for it, you would probably then go and build it traditionally using a PHP, using your, your rabid rabid framework building, because then you would own the code, then you'd host it yourself. You wouldn't, you wouldn't be reliant on, on the other party hosting it.

So yeah.

But you've proven it works or you've proven it doesn't work. You haven't invested one hundred thousand pounds or something. It doesn't work. You've invested some some of your own time. You'll learn how to how to build that application yourself using low code tools and then decide whether. And there are people out there. There's many examples of people who have built an application on bubble. So you pay bubble fifty dollars a month to use its tool. They build a tool. Then they get a thousand clients paying them twenty dollars a month for their specific tool they've built to appeal to a specific niche. As many of these, social sharing is a big thing that they've created a social sharing tool for specific niches and things. So, you know, you can build a business around this.

I mean, I love the idea of using it to build a minimum viable product. I mean, one of our SaaS products, alert eyes, that was probably eighteen months to get to MVP. I mean, we've been working on it now. I mean, he's got customers. I mean, it's it's a it's a good going a good going thing now. But I mean, it took us eighteen months of a full time developer to get to MVP. Um, a lot of trial and error. Should we do this should we do that kind of thing. But like using this approach. Yeah, we'd have got there a lot quicker and, you know, and a kind of worse example, if you like. I was, um, expert witness, I called in as an expert witness for a company that had invested. It was actually, it was actually a guy and his daughter who'd invested something like eighty thousand quid on some software development. And what was what the end thing that they had, you know, right, here it is. Here's our code was absolutely, totally useless. I mean, like not even salvageable as a software development project, you know, whereas even if they'd spent five grand developing an M v p with, with, you know, some of these tools we've talked about today, they would have either realised it can't be done very effectively, or they would have built something that meant then the software developers could see exactly what was required because it was a classic case of software developers. Oh, we thought you meant this. No, we didn't mean that. We meant something else. Oh, well, we'll have to start again then. You know, it was it was horrible. Horrible situation.

Yeah, I totally agree with you.

What's the what's the community support like Mike, in this? You know, if you because you're obviously almost like pioneering in this market. I mean, you kind of, you know, that's, you know, definitely using it in anger. I mean, is there good community support or is that a bit scarce still brilliant.

Um, again, I wouldn't use a tool unless there was a community support aspect to it. So anything I use, I make sure there's an active at least a Facebook group. So it's not totally under their control on their servers. You know, there's people can post negative stuff about it and ask questions about how do I do this? How do I do that? And it's and it's brilliant. And, you know, these modern companies are very much more switched on to the fact that they need community as part of their business model. If you have community, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that the more people that use your your product, the more you share that data, the better your company is going to be. And, you know, you just need to post something on Twitter these days and hashtag in the company and somebody will be back. Somebody much better than, than I will come back with an answer, you know, or point you in the right direction. You know, it's just. It's really good.

Yeah. Is it, um, is it possible that this kind of stuff is a have a go heroes license to print money? Is is there a danger with that at all? Do you think with this with this low code, no code movement movements, the word I was trying to think of earlier.

There we go. Movement. I um, yes, I mean, I, I, I don't really know the answer to that, but let's say yes because somebody could create a really nice front end to a tool that's not very powerful, doesn't actually do the job that you want it to do at the back end, you know, um, it's easy to design a nice looking website and people go, that's a really nice looking website. And the logic is, well, it's a nice looking website. Therefore it has the functionality you're promising me because it looks nice. I mean, I always fall for that, right? If they've designed a nice looking website, they must be good. But you know, unless they've unless it's been tested and unless there's already people raving about it, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, so I wouldn't recommend. People don't do that either. You know, if somebody you've got to do your due diligence with any tool you start using. But if you're I mean, like, like I alluded to, you know, Airtable is worth six billion dollars, you know, and that is by far the easiest and fast step to go to look at to see how to work. No code. Yeah. Um.

The and have they got like an academy? Have they got like Airtable academy. So it's like, you know, download the software, here's a hello world app to develop sort of thing. Is it that kind of stuff.

They understand they've got to lower the lower the barrier to fear because people are always going to assume it's difficult and there's going like it's not difficult. Look here, here's a template. You can download and play with it. You know, we're not charging you for that. Just play with it. It's not working for you. Then you haven't committed to anything, you know. And so they're really good. If you've got an idea for a tool for your business, you know, see someone phones you up, a client phones you up, and you fill in the forum. Somebody else takes that forum, then adds it to a spreadsheet. Somebody else takes a spreadsheet out, fills out a delivery note, you know, if you're doing that, go and have a look at your table and have a look at their delivery management system they've already built because they know what their tool is being used for, and they want other people to use it for that same purpose.

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, just as we start to think about winding up the, it's really creating a level, a level playing field, um, that's making app development available to all comers. Um, and importantly, I would say small to medium sized businesses that can't chuck a lot of money at software development. It's, it's, it's something that if they're not looking at it, they really should be.

Yes. And you know, we've got have a clearly defined definition of what it's for internal processes or your MVP type of thing. They're not it's not all about creating a business that you're then going to try and sell on small businesses. They don't have to try and make a profit from it. They've just got to streamline their processes. That's why it's very rare. I mean, I regularly Google good examples of Airtable in practice, right? You can't see them because they're just it's one companies build a process for themselves and then let other people see it. Of course they're not. They're not trying to make money off it. They're just trying to streamline their business. Yeah. And that's.

That's right.

You don't have to be SM um, even micro SMEs small. And if you're, if you have a process and you're even computer savvy, you could literally create, recreate a CRM solution for yourself connected to the product you sell. And you know, you don't have to go through a learning curve to work your HubSpot or, or any other CRMs. You've built it and keep developing it, as you say. Oh, I think I need it to do this. You just add that functionality and it doesn't cost you anything to add that functionality. It's a bit of time.

Yeah, yeah. It's been an education. I've really enjoyed this. If anybody listening to this is interested in this, I, I take it that, you know, you'd be happy to look at any speaking opportunities or if there's businesses who are starting to dabble with it, you'd be happy to go and speak to them. How would they best get in touch with you, Mike?

Mike Watson dot co dot UK is my website. Twitter. Mike Watson M w a uh, LinkedIn Mike Watson all the usual channels.

All the usual places. Yeah. That's good.

I'd love the opportunity to, to speak to, to businesses. Yeah. And just see how it would impact their processes, you know, and just yeah, it's not a case of getting to quote for a job. It's, it's a case of finding out whether it works fast. There's no point in assuming that every, specific no code solution is going to work for every business. You've got to assess the business you've got, assess the process, and then decide which application or application is best for that business. And that's the kind of conversation that needs to happen first. And I'd love to be able to speak to more and more businesses about that.

Yeah. And you know what? I think that that is you're going to be good at that because like us, you're involved in marketing, you have been involved in marketing for a long time. And I think what a lot of people miss is that people who do the kind of work you do, the kind of work we do, you really dig into a business when you meet somebody, you're not in there just saying, hey, you know, do you want to buy this? Do you want to buy that? You've got to find out. You've got to dig in, dig into the business, find out what's going on. How are they currently doing things? What's working, what's not? It's all of that stuff. So that inquisitive nature is it's just a perfect match, isn't it, for this stuff?

Exactly. And I, I will I do run other businesses. I've got another business called Beauty Plus, which is far too overengineered, with no code tools and automation for the size of it. But I actually do walk the walk, and I do try out some of these automation tools. I'll put them in the back end of of the Bureau plus website. Um, and I'll, if I need a website, I'll go and build a website to try out a solution. So I've got, I've got many different websites. Nobody, nobody will ever see, but they're there to, to demo a piece of software and to see how it integrates, you know, see how easy it is to integrate a WordPress website with HubSpot CRM, MailChimp, and Zapier. Yeah, I'll play with it just for myself. Like I said, it's my hobby. Dave.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, and you know, what I, I, I think in, in the game that we're in digital marketing digitalisation, if you're not feeling like that about it, if you're not playing with things, if you're not inquisitive, you're probably in the wrong job.

I think you're right. I think you're right. I mean, I've got I mean, the problem is there's just too much stuff coming out these days.

Too many shiny things.

Product hunt these days. And you'll see about twenty things. You know, I better go and have a look at that. Yeah, you just have to wait and go. No, I'll wait until, you know. Tech Crunch tells me they've raised one hundred million. Then I'll take it seriously, you know?

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'm hoping that you'll maybe come back in six months or so and talk to us again. And, and hopefully things have moved on. And some of the apps that we've talked about today will now be in production. And you maybe get to talk about how they've helped the business and maybe even something, you know, something really tangible that it improved X, Y, or Z within the organisation. Do you fancy doing?

I'd love to. That'd be great because I can guarantee in six months time it'll be a different conversation. You know, there'll be different tools out there doing different things. So it's only going to develop that further.

Yeah, absolutely. Perfect. Mike, it's been a pleasure. Thanks very much.