We've Taken The Nuclear Option And Put It In A Coke Can – Episode 152

We're working with engineering companies, and certainly some of our clients who are in the oil and gas industry are kind of busy trying to communicate that they are conscious of their carbon footprint being unkind. You could say some of them are trying to greenwash in order to survive. Is there anything similar in the nuclear industry? I mean, the nuclear industry seems to have missed a trick with its storytelling.

When you say the carbon footprint of something, it depends what you're comparing. So the big reactor that's being built at Hinkley at the moment, it uses a huge amount of concrete.

Is Hinkley using more concrete than all the wind farms in the UK?

I don't know, I wouldn't have thought so.

We're saying that nuclear is not as green as you think it is because of the infrastructure around the guts of it. I think you could level that criticism at all. Energy.

Yeah. I mean, the one thing that amazes a lot of people is how much nuclear fuel you actually need to power an individual's lifetime. The amount of fuel you actually need would fit in a Coke can.

Okay. Welcome back to Digital Marketing From The Coalface. And, um, I have a new partner in crime. In fact, I have a new partner in crime for now. Yeah, he's kind of on probation because I've a feeling he might be just a bit shit at it. So, um, I've got a partner in crime, a new partner in crime for now. And that's, uh, Stuart Harrison, who's been with us now for well over, well, quite a few years one way or another. But like, certainly on a semi-permanent basis for over a year now, um, she's got an interesting background and he's going to tell us all about that, um, quite soon. So, um, yeah, you go and do the washing up or something while this bit of the podcast plays out, we are going to continue the theme of talking about digital marketing, business development. We might stray into politics, we might talk about any old nonsense like we've always done with digital marketing from the coalface and hopefully um, the new um, line up is going to be, um, as entertaining to our loyal listener as, uh, as the, uh, the last one hundred and fifty one was it one hundred and fifty one episodes have been so, um, we didn't get off to the most auspicious start today because I, I loaned my headphones to somebody and I got them back with no charge in them. I got a pair of wired headphones out, stuck them in my lugs and realized they'd had they had a lightning connection on the end instead of something I can plug into my, uh, my laptop. So Stuart Harrison is, uh, part of the team here at Red evolution, primarily involved with. Well, what is it you do? I have no idea.

Gosh, it's been a year and you finally caught up with me. What can I say? Uh, well, that's a good question. What do I do? I add input and thought processes. Dave. Yeah. Oh, Jesus.

You can tell he had a corporate background. I mean, straight away we're off into the corporate bullshit. Uh, okay. So we'll just like, like, stop there. Pause. Press the button. Okay, we're going back a bit. What is it you do here at Red evolution?

I guess in all seriousness, I guess a couple of things. Really? Uh, I've been working with you guys internally about how we grow the business, but in terms of the clients, the more important bit. Um, finding clients, that's always a good one. But working with you to identify particularly some of the upfront stuff, you know, what's the client messaging? What is it that really, in terms of their offer, what is it really that people want to buy of their offer? And how do we position that and create content that reflects that?

Yeah, obviously that's a fair fairly good summary. So just give us, um, if it's at all possible because you do like to tell a story, could you tell us, give us a potted history. Bear in mind if anyone's interested. We did do an interview with you, Stu. Um, a few years ago on one of the earlier episodes of, uh, digital marketing from the call first, didn't we? I can't remember. That would probably be I'm thinking it was after episode twenty, but probably before episode thirty. But I might be completely wrong about that. It was quite a long time ago. So you can always go and have a, have a, have a listen to that. But yeah, I mean, potted history of how you finished up working for a totty wee digital marketing agency in northeast Scotland.

Um, yeah. I guess like many people in life, my career has taken quite a few twists and turns generally when, uh, opportunity was presented, but very potted history. Um, I started life off as a physicist for my sins. Um, haven't practiced that for about thirty years in, in anger, uh, early years were in the nuclear industry. I worked for some of the big asset owners, worked in technical jobs, moved around a bit as you could with big companies. So I worked in PR, worked in commercial, worked in HR, uh, to learn how not to manage people and, um, then ended up in a, in a project management role. Got a bit sick of working for the big boys because it took too long to get a lot of things done. So I moved into the supply chain and really spent twenty years growing engineering companies. I ended up in business development, and that's where the fit really comes with read Evo because as a BD director, which I was for a long time, I used to buy in marketing services. I used to have marketing people working for me, but my focus was always on sales. So marketing marketing was almost the second thought. It was the poor relation really. And, you know, having worked with you guys and, and got to know you and got under the skin of marketing and particularly digital marketing, um, suddenly it was a bit of an epiphany about you can actually sell services and complex solutions online and more and more people are looking to buy them. So that's what kind of floating my boat really and got me interested.

And you are at the moment, um, also on secondment. Um, I don't know how much you can talk about that. I'm not at all.

I told a little bit about it. It's on LinkedIn. So, um, yeah, I picked up a sort of part time contract. I'm working with the UK a and for those that don't like acronyms, that's a United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority. So I'm supporting them out of their operation down in Culham in Oxfordshire, on a programme to try and get the UK supply chain ready for fusion possibilities in the future. So that's, you know, commercial contracts. Um, and I'm working with them on industrial engagement. So how can we deliver benefit to the supply chain so that UK plc can win some work?

Okay. So hopefully it's clear, um, from, from listening to Stu's, um, generously potted history of, of where he's come from and finished up, uh, working with us. Um, that it's a very good fit for us given, you know, our, our focus on tech and industrial businesses. And more recently, you've been involved working with us with some of our engineering clients developing content. Yeah, absolutely. Um, which is, I mean, in the past, you've done quite a lot of writing. You've done writing when you were involved in the nuclear industry. Um, and, uh, I think it's something that you're, um, sort of well suited to because you understand technical concepts and then you also understand how to then communicate those technical concepts into, into language that is more consumable. Is that the right word I'm looking? Is that the word I'm looking for? It sounds about right. It does. Um, just going back to your nuclear stuff, um, it must be interesting working in an industry that's named after a bomb.

Well, I would say it's explosive, but that would be a bad pun. Yeah. Um.

I wasn't expecting a, a mildly humorous comeback there. Well done, well done. I guess what I'm driving at is because, you know, we're all about telling stories. We're all about helping businesses tell a great story. And that helps to engage people, attract customers and all the rest of it. And, you know, the nuclear industry, I think it's fair to say, has As probably originally probably got its story wrong. I mean, Rory, that nuclear bomb thing. I mean, you know, Rory Sutherland said, you know, like the problem with the nuclear industry is it's incredible, you know, what, what nuclear power can provide in terms of clean energy, etc., is, is mind blowing. And its biggest problem has been the story it told started with, we've named ourselves after a bomb. And, you know, it's like every, you know, suddenly it's like nuclear energy. But wait a minute, nuclear means bomb. So nuclear energy can't be good. So nuclear energy, generally speaking, has probably got its story wrong. And it's encouraging now to see this resurgence in interest because it's clean energy and resurgence in nuclear. You must have it must be interesting for you because you've probably you probably started your life working in nuclear in the wake of Chernobyl and in, in, in a kind of atmosphere of fear. And, and we need to get rid of this nuclear industry because it's such a bad thing, because of the waste and everything else. And then you're now seeing it as it emerges as clean energy. It's that would that be fair?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's been really interesting to watch the two things, the public perception and how it's presented as an industry. I mean, to be fair, you know, for for thirty or forty years, the production of energy and the production of weapons were absolutely intertwined. You know, um, so Rory Sutherland's comment about they named it after a bomb. Well, you know, the early reactors were designed to produce material that could be used in bombs. So that's where it came from. But in the nineties, it was it was. And I worked in PR briefly in the nineties in nuclear. It became apparent quickly to us we couldn't change the public perception about nuclear, but we could change the public perception about our company within nuclear, you know. So whilst nuclear as an industry might have a bad reputation, especially after the likes of Chernobyl, the company I worked for could have a good reputation as a safe pair of hands, etc. within that industry. So. So we, we deliberately repositioned the messaging and the storying about our safety record. You know, our track record in the environment, all of those kind of things, um, to, to a degree, disassociate ourselves with the brand of the nuclear industry. Yeah. I mean, it was, yeah, it was interesting going back to your comment earlier about some of the stuff I've done, because I've done a hell of a lot of report writing, as you would imagine. I've done an awful lot of proposal and bid writing over the years as well, and communicating the message that we do with the digital marketing is completely different to that. It's a very different style of writing, actually, which is I'm, I'm having to adjust to and be accustomed to. And it takes me back in many ways more to the stuff that I did when I was in PR than anything I've done in sales. Yeah, absolutely. So but it's interesting because working in fusion now, which, you know, for those that don't know, fission and fusion, whilst they, from a science point of view, both come from atoms. It's completely different science. The. The potential impacts are very different. You know, the, the waste that comes out of these two things is very different. And but it's too easy to lump them together as it's just nuclear. Yeah.

So we, because we have, um, a new customer who, who are in um, nuclear engineering. Um, and just by the way, just so you may remember when we in the podcast, we sometimes refer to projects, but we do them with in a, in a way that's anonymous. We never talk about actual clients and actual companies, actual projects, uh, so much. Um, or at least we try not, not to talk about things that can be clearly identified just because, you know, it saves us asking our clients for permission to talk about their projects. So we, we always talk in a roundabout way about some of the things that we're working on. But yeah, we are working with a new client in the nuclear industry, which we're delighted about. We're working on a rebrand and you and I have had sight of the, um, the initial rebrand work we've been doing for them and I'm, you know, really, really excited about showing it to them because I think we've absolutely knocked it out of the park. Um, I think you do. Totally. So as part of that, because we were working with them and I just kind of I'm interested anyway, so as you know, I related it to you because I said, look, I've been doing some research, Stuart, you know, and, um, I've kind of figured out, I think how nuclear reactors work and I explained it to you and you sort of like patted me on the head and said, yeah, that's kind of more or less that's how they work. Dave. Now, now bugger off back and do some more marketing. Um.

Do you want my response?

What's, what's. Yeah. Go on.

So in the same way you describe a car with four wheels, a steering wheel and an engine and you put petrol in it, it's absolutely correct, but it's missing some of the detail. Yeah.

All right. I didn't talk about the indicators. Christ almighty, you can't please some people. Um, but I what was interesting for me at a very superficial level. I kind of thought, ah. So basically we've got organised chaos. Um, and there's these things called control rods. And they kind of, they kind of keep the organised chaos from, from, um, you know, from getting out of hand and, and it creates enormous amounts of power. So I kind of got that, that was the whole new nuclear fusion.

Fission.

Thing. Fission.

Yeah.

Right. Okay. So what's the difference? What how is nuclear? Why is nuclear fusion so hard? I didn't actually think we'd get talking about nuclear fusion in our first digital marketing from the first podcast together. But I'm very interested by it because obviously energy is a really hot topic for all of us. Um, so, so what is it? What's the difference? What's the big difference with fusion?

Okay. Um, by the way, listeners tune in for next week's episode on quantum mechanics. Uh, so.

Where we, where we will both talk about and not talk about quantum mechanics. Very good. Sorry.

The very simply fission is where you split a big atom into smaller atoms and it releases energy. Fusion is where you combine two very small atoms and it releases energy. And, um, everything else is very different. How you produce that, how you control it. So in, in fission, it's metallic fuel basically sitting stationary. And as you say, use control rods to control the rate of reaction that's going on in fusion. Um, basically this thing gets so hot, it turns everything into a plasma, which is a, it's more than a gas. It's literally everything's just, it's a vapor. It's more than just a vapor. It's really hard to describe.

Um, it seems very hard to.

Do because.

You can't describe it.

So the best example I can give you of a fusion reactor, a natural one is the sun. That is a fusion reactor. Okay, so, but we're trying to build very, very small ones on earth that produce a lot of heat and power.

And so for fusion is effectively trying to recreate mini suns here on earth in order to create.

Very mini suns. So a few atoms, not like billions of atoms. Yeah.

And something that's only the size of a few atoms can produce enough, enough energy to produce meaningful amounts of power.

And to give you an example. And this, this always blows me away. Um, the most common current design of a fusion reactor is doughnut shaped. So you create the plasma and control it with magnets. Yeah. And then you extract the heat. So the outside edge of that doughnut is near as dammit, absolute zero. So that's minus two hundred and seventy three degrees C for those that don't know.

Or Kelvin zero degrees Kelvin.

Yes, zero Kelvin minus two seventy three. Well done. Um, the plasma is one hundred million degrees centigrade.

Uh.

Yeah. Can't get my head around that. It's quite hot.

That's even hotter than my Nana's hot pot.

Exactly.

That was. That was capable of generating electricity. My, my Nana's hot pot. So how she made it so hot. I have no idea. But she did.

And on.

This. On this. Okay. So that this is where it gets ridiculous. Because this is where it gets like when I was a kid, I used to love watching, um, James Burke. I think he used to do pieces on Tomorrow's World. Yeah. And I, and he, he was fantastic at explaining things. And I used to be glued to the TV, even though being a deaf lady, I didn't really have a clue what he was talking about, but he did it in such an engaging way. Now, you just explained to me in a very engaging way about nuclear fusion, and you've got like naught degrees Kelvin on the outside and a hundred million degrees or something on the inside. And this is like several atoms big. And I really struggle. You know, it's like in computing where it says, oh, the latest chip will carry out, you know, four million calculations per second or whatever. And actually it's way faster than that. And it's like, nah, I'm thinking pistons and valves opening, I can't imagine, I can't imagine that amount of stuff happening. And I just can't get my head around that temperature. And is it like it's that temperature or nothing? You can't say, well, well, if it's a big problem, why don't you just do fusion and make it a bit cooler?

Yeah, basically it has to be that temperature. That is that that's when the fusion reaction occurs. That's what it creates at that temperature. So and the challenge in all of that, they've created fusion. They've created plasmas. You know, they've, they've created them in bursts. But the challenge is now an engineering challenge in many ways. So the science is proven, the science exists. It exists on a reasonable scale, not an industrial scale, but still like the the one of the donuts in the UK, the tokamak, as they're called properly. Um, it's probably about twenty or thirty feet across, something like that, three or three or four meters. Um, to make power on an industrial scale, you need something ten times, twenty times that size, same as you do with any other power station. You know, it needs to be big.

So is it like Hadron Collider size?

No, no no. Yeah.

It's not that sort of.

No, no. I mean, Hadron Collider is something like five miles across isn't it? Diameter something ridiculous like that. Um, so it is literally a doughnut shape. And, but instead of having custard in the middle or jam, you've got plasma.

You've lost me. There's no custard.

I'm out. And he doesn't have a caramel topping with sprinkles on, you know. But um, so, you know, the hard bit is controlling the plasma. The next hard bit is how do you take the heat out without losing control of the plasma or losing the plasma. And, and then transfer it into a heat system that would be similar to that of a conventional power station. You know, pump it into water to turn to steam, to feed a turbine.

Yeah, yeah. And is anybody producing electricity from fusion on an industrial scale anywhere in the world yet?

No. And the, the, the.

Aren't the Chinese very close to it. Well or is that just is that just bullshit that I've read, I've seen on Twitter or somewhere or not Twitter.

Yeah, they've got some really advanced experiments. I think it's fair to say until about ten years ago, there was probably only four or five large scale experiments in the world, the UK being one of the leaders in it. Um and um more recently and the joke infusion was industrial scale fusion is always fifty years away, but it always has been fifty years away. Yeah. So okay. Um, but what's happened more recently, there's been a lot of private money coming in rather than just government funded research projects. There's private money coming in. So, you know, some of the big hedge funds, some of the wealthy, um, people like I think Bill gates don't quote me on that. You might have to edit that out, but, um, he's, he's backing private power companies to produce power to the grid. So most of the experiments to date have been exactly that. It's been R&D projects and you'll appreciate from your background, delivering an R&D project is not the same as delivering an industrial project. You know, you've got a very simple aim with an industrial project. Make it big enough, make it work and build it on time to budget. Yeah. Whereas with R&D, the primary purpose is let's experiment. See.

Let's see if it works.

Yeah. And what happens if we turn it left rather than right? You know, it's that kind of thing. Yeah. So we can learn more about it, you know? So, um, there is some good stuff if anybody is really interested in. I suspect they're not if they're listening, but, um, there's an international organisation called the Fusion Industry Association, funnily enough, and they've actually got a brochure you can download that says, who are all the developers at the moment and where are they up to? Yeah. But there's about, there's several billion a year being spent on it now. Yeah. It's not, it's not small scale. Some mad scientists in a shed. Yeah. So.

So, you know, we, we're working with engineering companies and certainly some of our, um, some of our clients who are in the oil and gas industry are some of them, not all of them. Some of them are kind of busy trying to, um, you know, appear Or communicate that they are conscious of their carbon footprint and their. You know, I guess being unkind, you could say some of them are trying to greenwash in order to survive. Um, what what's similar in the is there anything similar in the nuclear industry? I mean, the, the nuclear industry seems to have missed a trick with its storytelling around the fact that the that it's it's a very efficient and very clean form of electricity. If you conveniently forget about the shit that's left over once, once they have to put new fuel into the into the reactor.

I think there's a couple of things there. And this is where it does get complicated. You know, when you say the carbon footprint of something, it depends what you're comparing, you know, so the big reactor that's being built at Hinkley at the moment in the UK or two units actually, it uses a huge amount of concrete, a huge amount of concrete. And anybody who understands environmental impact knows concrete is one of the worst things. Yeah. So they're not there's no technology is clean. And I think, you know, this is where.

I mean, does that is Hinckley using more concrete than all the wind farms in the UK? Uh, I don't know.

I wouldn't have thought so, but, um.

No, because the concrete that goes into the base of a wind farm is vast.

Yeah.

And and I'm not against wind farms. I'm a windmill lover. I'm not saying I am. I'm just trying to say, you know, if we're saying that nuclear is is not as green as you think it is because of the infrastructure around. Correct. The the guts of it, then you could I think you could level that that that criticism at all energy.

Yeah. I mean, the one thing that amazes a lot of people is how much nuclear fuel you actually need to power an individual's lifetime, assuming an average individual driving average miles, taking average flights and the amount.

Yeah. I mean, you communicated this recently. Go on, tell us.

So the amount of fuel you actually need would fit in a Coke can to power.

Like my entire life, all of my energy requirements for my whole life, right?

So yeah, I mean, it's, it's a very small amount of fuel. And if you actually look at the size of anybody's seen a nuclear reactor in real life, from the outside, it looks a huge building. The actual reactor vessel is tiny inside, you know, the rest is all shielding protection, you know, heating systems, cooling systems, electricity systems that just fit on the outside of it, you know, so but what, what, what people fear the most is, is the consequences if you don't understand it, the consequences are unknown. And on your point earlier, I guess about I can't get my head around one hundred million degrees centigrade or, you know, a billion operations on a computer chip in in a second. You know, people who don't understand the science behind it are understandably, as we all are afraid of it. You know, they don't necessarily realize by living in Cornwall or Aberdeen, you're actually getting a quite a significant radiation dose every year because it comes from the rocks, your own bone, your own bones emit radiation, you know? Um, so it's all about context, you know.

Well, I live in a granite house, so we get rid of gas in the in our house, you know, which, which I do the square root of all about.

You're supposed to vent up.

Open the doors quite a lot. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so okay.

It's all about context and understanding really, but from a power production point of view, I mean, uh, it may have changed now because wind turbines have become more efficient, but at one point to have a wind farm that would produce as much power as one of these new nuclear plants, it would need to be about the size of Birmingham. So, so a major city. Yeah. So it's the scale that's the issue really is how much power these things can produce. Although the big buildings, you know, it's it's on one footprint. It's not spread over miles and miles and miles. That said, this is where, you know, um, alternative forms of energy, like wind, like solar, light wave, etcetera, where they can outperform is they can innovate very quickly. So nuclear to be safe, as you would expect, has got a huge amount of codes, standard safety regs, etc. and and before anybody will change those, you've got to do ten years worth of research to prove, you know, and I'm not joking about ten years. It's about ten years of research to get one of those codes changed. Whereas if you want to change the angle of a blade on a wind turbine because you think it might make it more efficient, you tell Bob back at the factory and he makes you a slightly different shape, you know? Yeah. Or Bob.

Et. I think that's something that's missed. I mean, I mean, we will get off nuclear in a second, but that's something that's missing. I'm picking up on something that you said when we were talking about, um, I think it was in relation to when we were brainstorming around the rebranding of the nuclear engineering company that we're now working with. Um, and we said, I'll see if I can get this right. It was something like, oh, the chances of that happening are like a thousand to one. So it's like, oh, you know, that's, there's no chance of that's going to happen. But you said in the nuclear industry, the chances of something happening being a thousand to one means, oh, well, we can't do that. Acceptable. You know, that totally unacceptable. Yeah. That those so the standards that the nuclear industry works to are quite incredible.

Yeah they are. You know, to make it real and maybe a little bit personal, but I had, as you know, go to the hospital for a procedure, one that's considered relatively routine. And the NHS had given me some really useful information about what that's what the procedure is going to be. And they said there's a one in fifteen zero zero zero chance that we might tear something when we do this, and that might need major surgery. And there's a one in, I think it was either twenty five or thirty zero zero zero chance you might die. Um, and having come from the nuclear industry, when we're looking at safety cases, we consider things that might be one in ten million and put mitigation in place. Yeah. Yeah. And so I saw the consultant and I went, is this supposed to make me feel safe? And she said, well, two things. One, we have to publish this data, you know, because in case we get sued. Yeah. And I went fine. And she said the other thing. Yeah, it's meant to make you feel safe. And I said, well, I would say that, you know, one in fifteen thousand chance of major surgery as a result of this wasn't good odds, you know? I mean, great, if I'm going to the bookies and I'm putting a quid on a horse at the Grand National. Yeah. Fantastic. It's a long shot, I get that. But, you know, I've made more than fifteen thousand journeys in a car in my lifetime, probably in the last three years really. You know, and, you know, if you're going to have major surgery every time you drove fifteen thousand miles, you know, you wouldn't accept it, would you? You know, no, I'm going to get in my car and this seat's really uncomfortable. So if you do fifteen thousand miles, there's a good chance you're going to have to have major back surgery because. But we're not changing the seat design, you know? So so it is all about perception. It's all about. Yeah. And numbers in particular, you know, um, numbers are meaningless unless they've got context. Yeah.

Yeah. That's right. Okay. Um changing the subject a little bit. You have been, you have been, uh, well, that's the thing about digital marketing from the coalface, you know, we're talking about, we're talking about stuff we're working on. We've, we've, um, landed a fantastic new client who are in the nuclear industry and therefore we get all excited about nuclear. We want to learn about nuclear. And, you know, obviously your background's nuclear as well. So it's not surprising that we talk about it. We tend to want to immerse ourselves in subjects when we work with customers in an area where we haven't worked massively. One of the things that you've been quite heavily involved with, um, over the last, uh, crikey, six, seven, eight months, something like that is guiding us through the whole B Corp process. And we're getting now to the point where I think it's at least finding out whether we're going to get our B Corp status or we're not going to get our B Corp status is kind of within touching distance. And I think it's fair to say I expected it to be, um, uh, I expected it to be a challenging process because it's not one of these like back of a conflict packet type badges that you get. It's like it's something you have to work towards. I expected it to be quite challenging. Um, very much appreciative of the fact that you've wrapped your head around it and gone through it. And it's fair to say that it's a difficult process because there's lots of things you have to be you have to prove that you are doing, or you have to tell, or you have to decide you're going to do in order to gain the b-corp status. But the actual process itself and the system that they use for communicating and all the rest of it seems to me unnecessarily complicated. Is that the right word or just not very good?

I'll go for not very good. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's, it's, um, it's not complicated because it doesn't have much functionality, but it, it doesn't communicate very well. Yeah. So like, like a lot of things, you know, you'll get a notification and to do something. So you follow the link in the notification. It doesn't quite seem to take you where you think it should take you. And you can't quite find where you go. Well, that's a problem. I was being polite, but.

Yeah, no, you don't have to be polite on on this podcast. Yeah. So I think what I would say to anyone that's looking at the B Corp process is, yes, it's arduous in terms of the things that you have to make sure that your business is doing. But it's also, um, difficult because it just seems to be overly complex, you know, in terms of answering the questions, providing the evidence and all the rest of it. So if you're going to do it, if you haven't got a Stuart, uh, I would say you should use one of the people who provide the service of helping you through the whole process.

I totally agree with that. I mean, yeah, well, you know, I mean, coming from nuclear, I've been through all sorts of quality management systems, helped, helped, um, read evo, get ISO nine thousand and one. It's very different. You did well, you know, in principle it's the same. There's a set of standards. Do you meet them? Yeah. It completely different kind of standards. It's not about process. Um there is some, you know, elements of um. Can you demonstrate you do something properly and routinely, but it's really, it really is about how do you behave? Yeah. And I think for a small business that doesn't necessarily have all the big corporate systems in place, it is very doable. Um, but you just have to think a bit, um, think a bit about how you might be able to prove what you do as an everyday thing, you know, because, because you won't have a quality manager capturing twenty seven dashboards of data associated with a particular thing they're looking for, but it's very doable. Yeah. The other thing that it's amazing, isn't it? You know, sometimes it's what you do is what you look at. Um, until I started working on B Corps with you guys, I wasn't overly familiar with it. And everywhere I go, I see it now. Yeah. Yeah. Bought a bottle of gin the other day. That was B Corp certified.

Yeah. The biggest question I think is whether it's B Corp or B Corp. Didn't you buy some sausages that were B Corp as well?

Uh, something like that. Yeah, it was from a.

Farm shop I bought, I bought some sausages from the Corp and they were from an organisation who had b-corp status. Actually, the sausages were a bit shit, so I don't know what that says about B-corp, but they allow people who make sausages. Not easy to say. They become become b-corp. Um um, approved or whatever. Um, okay. So I thought because this was our first podcast together and like I said, I think you and I will be doing the majority of these podcasts going forward. Um, I'm, you know, excited for when Cameron joins us. Uh, Cameron's, um, joining red evolution, uh, at the beginning of June, uh, bringing with him, uh, a lot of experience around paid media and, and, um, different aspects of, um, the digital marketing work that we do. So I think, I think you'll be able to add some real value to the, to the podcast. But I think, I think you and I will do more, most of them. I think, um, you know, we've been banging away now, you know, apart from the preamble we did before we started actually creating the podcast itself, making sure the tech was all working for about half an hour. I think that's a good start. Um, My main takeaway from the podcast today is that nuclear power stations are powered by Coke cans. I think I'm right. That's correct. That's what.

You said. Spot on. Absolutely. Spot on.

I thought that's what you said. And, um, we'll be back with more from the, um, more, more digital marketing from the coalface, uh, back onto a, onto a regular basis. We've had a short, a short break as we have several times over the last few years and, um, you think you're going to enjoy it, Stu.

Yeah. Yeah.

Relax into it and, and, and get in. I mean, you've been listening to some of the podcasts, haven't you, over the years. So you kind of get it's a somewhat sort of irreverent kind of wander through digital marketing and then just like wanders off in any direction. It tends to go in. And I think that's, broadly speaking, what people expect from it.

Yeah, it was a lot more comfortable than the first one I did a year or two ago, whenever that was. Um, just promise me one thing. We're not going to talk about nuclear in every single one of them, because you really will have nobody left following you, you know that. Yeah.

I don't know. I think I find it fascinating. I mean, I, you know, I'm, I just think it's it's such an interesting area and, and very much at the moment, I mean, you know, we've seen Rolls-Royce shares go absolutely through the roof. I mean, primarily, I think on the back of nuclear more than more than turbines I think. Would that be fair to say. You know, so there's there's a lot going on in in the business world, in the world of engineering around the idea of nuclear. Um, and so, you know, you know, we certainly would like to, um, think that we can, you know, work with some more companies who are involved in nuclear. Um, unless, unless bcorp tell us we can't, unless they're decided that it's a, it's a naughty industry and you're not allowed to work with companies in that industry, I don't know.

Yeah, I do find that in everywhere in life there's ironies, isn't there? My favourite one with that is there's certain industries that are considered controversial, but it's. But it's okay to produce alcohol. MM.

Yeah, I know, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, well, famously BrewDog were b-corp and then, um, infamously they're no longer b-corp. But um, yeah, it is a funny one. It is a funny one that people that produce alcohol are b-corp certified. Yeah. If you work in, if you work for, if we work directly for a company that produces oil and gas, then B-corp would probably say, um, nah, sorry guys, you know, you can't. But yeah, if you make something, I mean, I like a beer, but so I'm not a teetotaller. But yeah, if you make something that effectively is poison, then yeah, you're good, you're good, you're good.

Yeah. As long as it's labeled, as long as it's labeled properly.

Yeah. That's right. Mix this poison with with, with um tonic and it'll make a nice drink. Now I think we've Realme wandered into the realms of being ridiculous now, so I'll wind this one down. Um, you've been listening to Stu and Dave on Digital Marketing From The Coalface and um, more drivel from us soon.