From Keywords to Vibe Coding: The AI Era of Industrial Marketing – Episode 164

The citations are still a key part of it the maturity of a domain name and the mentions and links from other places and all that. It still all feeds in to help them understand, you know, what and who's an authority and who isn't an authority. Yeah, yeah. It's just a massive, boring game, isn't it?

I think it's slightly more interesting though. You know, we've been using a tool to look at like prompts and what and what people are typing in in order to get different companies actually to show up in the LMS instead of it just being, you know, whatever HR systems it's now, um, things like which HR systems are better than spreadsheets and emails for tracking issues in the healthcare industry or whatever. You can see the problems people are having. It's a lot clearer than, than having to sort of dig about and go, right, what they're looking for this, what do we think they're actually asking? Now we can like see exactly what they're actually asking.

Okay. Welcome back to.

Digital.

Digital Drivel from the coalface, I think. Last time you almost started, um, drivelling on about keywords and things and then but we got to the end because we were so bored with that drivel we were talking about.

And we had a very exciting conversation about marketing.

Instead, which.

Was good, I enjoyed it.

Yeah. Didn't you turn it into a blog post or something?

I did turn it into a blog post.

Yeah, just the transcript or something.

I turned the transcript into a blog post.

Did I help you do that?

They might have done just a little bit.

They might have done. Yeah. I like that.

one. One of them. Um. Yeah.

But yes, in, in, uh, some semblance of continuity. So we don't forget apart from other things that we've drawn on about, um, do you want to pick up on that? Because I know you've put an awful lot of work into the preparation. It's me who's ringing me, Google trying to get us to spend more money with pay per click.

P p p p p p p. Yeah, I've got lots of notes and they're all a bit jumbled up because I keep thinking of things and finding things. But, um, yeah, I just kind of wanted to talk about keyword research because I think I've had a few, a couple of clients asked recently, oh, you know, what keyword should we be looking at? And it's like, it's quite hard to explain that it's, it's kind of a lot more complicated than that. And you can't just like throw the keyword in a couple of times into the blog post and, hey, you've done your SEO. And then I kind of went down a rabbit hole of like researching entities and then how to rank for AI as well as SEO. And is SEO the same as, um, generative engine optimisation or is it different? And depends who you ask. And then people are now typing much longer queries in because they're used to talking to Alexa or ChatGPT or whatever. So keywords have got bigger, but it doesn't really matter because the search engines basically understand what you're talking about anyway. And so there's a kind of big mish mash of things that are all kind of related to the fact that, number one, keywords aren't really that important on their own anymore. And number two, and people are making much more complex search queries. And it's kind of more down to what we always say is that you've actually got to understand your customer to understand what they're they're actually looking for, and then answer that question. So, you know, don't get hung up on one specific keyword, get hung up on the topic and the things that they want to know. Okay.

So that's a bit of a stream of stream of consciousness that was so.

There is some sort of conversation to be had.

In order to encourage people either not to switch off or fast forward. What are they going to learn about when we have this conversation?

Going to learn.

Demystify keyword research in the modern era?

Yeah. Why? Just shoving a load of words, a number of certain number of times into a piece of content isn't really going to cut it. And what to do instead.

If it ever did. Well, it maybe did in twenty eleven.

It did. It did for a while, but it probably shouldn't have. But it did. And it did for a lot longer than Google said it should. But really, now we should not be doing that. And we will kind of talk about where you should be going and how it's got more complicated and what to be looking for and where to be looking for it.

Has it got more complicated?

I think it has, because the keywords are the keyword, the phrases that you're you're wanting to look at, the questions you're going to want to answer are a lot more complicated. Right. Here's where I get into all the things I researched was, um, queries with seven to eight words have doubled in volume since people started using, um, AI engines. For example, I've got here instead of typing in running shoes, people are typing in, you know, running shoes for road running for beginner runners who run ten miles a week and much, much more complicated. So just typing in running shoes isn't really very helpful. And nobody's gonna know, you know? Okay. Do we show your page or not? Because we don't know if it's relevant to the person that's typed this much more complex query into our engine of some description. So yes, I think it has got more complicated because you've got to understand who your customers are, what they're looking for. And it's all about intent as well. Are they just, you know, doing some research as to, you know, what are the options? Or are they actually actively looking to buy something? Or are they trying to find out that the one, if the ones they've just bought are the right ones? So, um, it's much, much more complicated than just like throwing a few words at it.

Do you think it was, it was always the case that you didn't optimise for long tail search and people, you know, we've been over this in the blog podcast many times. Long tail search doesn't mean search terms that have got lots of words in them. No, they just mean search terms that are not used very often, which tend to have lots of words.

Exactly.

That was so that was the subtle difference. But you can't investigate necessarily what people are searching for in terms of these long phrases and say, right, we're just going to optimise for that long phrase. You've got to make the content sufficiently, you know, in the example you give, given that we're in industrial marketing agency, I think that's a really good example to talk about.

Yeah.

But anyway, it's one that people get and understand.

Yeah.

But for that, then, you know, a piece of content that spoke about, you know, why is a running shoe different from a normal, a normal sort of gym shoe, like an Adidas trainer or whatever, you know, like that kind of thing. Other trainers are available. Um, you know, what specifically is suitable for running on roads, for running on tracks, for running on grass. Um, you know, what is suitable for people who are just starting out running and you just go into the whole range of, of information and the engines will figure out or. This isn't just about running shoes. It's about, you know, it's covering all aspects of running. It's a decent educational piece of content or whatever. I mean, not that it's necessarily thinking in a, in a, in a sort of sentient way like that.

But no, but it's looking for answers.

It's looking for answers. That's right. Yeah. So that's why, you know, we talk about adding FAQs. I don't always add them on a blog post, but now and again, I'll add an FAQ on a blog post and adding FAQs into content, general content that we're writing for for our site and other sites. But but what, what do people, you know, how do people use this information? Is it just about writing more comprehensive content and not worrying about mentioning running shoes fifteen times?

Partly that and it's about, um, you know, the content clusters or topic clusters. And if you've got like a page about running shoes, think about all the other things people might want to know about running shoes and make sure they're all linked together. So, um, you're saying.

Sounds like ultimately you're just going to create this like spaghetti soup of nonsense on a on a page that's got ten thousand words on it.

No, but it's about having one page. That's the sort of basis. And then having all the really niche stuff in separate articles, all linking into it in a little like, say, the clusters.

Just like you've always done with SEO.

Really. We've been doing this for, for a long time, but I think it's just getting more and more important. And the, the niche topics are probably getting more and more niche as people ask more specific questions. So instead of having your, your running shoes page and then your running shoes for women, running shoes for men, running shoes for kids, running shoes for beginners, you probably can get more specific. So it gives you more opportunities to, to write for very specific audiences. Or as the engines are getting cleverer, you actually could just have a section in an article that that covers one of those topics and it can find it, it's not necessarily needing you to, to do a whole page about it. It's looking for chunks of content now rather than entire articles.

I think there's a bit more. I think there's a real danger with this that we that we finish up like we did through, you know, probably from sort of twenty fifteen through to twenty twenty three twenty four where, you know, we just kind of devote our lives to trying to, you know, worship Google and what does Google want? What does Google want? If you think about what your customers need.

Exactly.

Then everything becomes a lot simpler. Yeah. If you think about it in an industrial marketing context, engineering companies and the like, engineering companies often run by engineers, or at least engineers, have got their paws all over the running of the business, if nothing else. They quite often are of the mindset that we, you know, we're called, you know, um, Acme engineering when I was out metal detecting, uh, not last week and not the weekend just gone because it's Monday today, not, not yesterday, but Sunday before I actually found a thing and it had Acme on it Almost like. Really? Yeah. Just like properly embossed into it. Okay. I was like, yeah, they are actually a real company because we often use them, don't we?

Yeah. It's just a sort of standard example and like, you know, blah, blah, blah. Mhm.

So if you're running an engineering company, you know, Acme engineering, then quite often, you know, like engineers and the like think, well, you know, we're called engineering. We put some photographs of what we do and then put some pages listing what we do. But that's it. That's all we need to do. Yeah. And what's actually the case is that if you think about what you do in the context of the people that buy it and the problems they're trying to solve, marketing and.

Marketing approach.

Yeah. And then your content, you know, nearly writes itself because, but you've got to take the time. And if you do that, you will also be using without even thinking about it, the terms, the phrases, the, the subjects that your ideal customers are typing into, you know, Claude ChatGPT? Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. It's like it, um, it comes down to perplexity. All, all of the above. It comes down to understanding who you're actually trying to speak to and having that person in mind and almost, you know, trying to write for.

But what I'm saying is.

To.

Keep things simple for people who are maybe getting confused, and they certainly have always been confused about keywords and the like. If you just focus on what customers actually buy from you, the problems you actually solve for them and write about that. You know, the salespeople, you know, they're speaking to customers all the time. They understand what the pain points are, they understand all this stuff and then write comprehensively about that because, you know, companies who are, you know, writing about this and not being overly concerned that, oh, our competitors might read this. And then, you know, you're the ones that are not overly concerned about that. The ones that are sharing the knowledge, they're the ones who are going to pop up in AI searches and Google searches as well. Excuse me. And they're going to be in a much stronger position and are likely to be the ones that are getting the the rfqs sent through or the or the website form sent through or, you know, or the phone calls, you know, because they're like showing people, oh, these, these guys actually understand, you know.

What, where I'm at, where am I? They're right for me right now.

Whereas these guys over here are just listed out that they do, you know, asinine welding and the and they can they can make fancy things with Inconel. And they've got a CNC machine that does a million things in, in 20s. And you know, and that's like, great, but do you solve the problem I've got precisely.

Yeah. Which makes it a lot easier. And to be fair, Google has always said, you know, write for people. Don't try and write for Google, try and write for people, answer your customer's questions and provide helpful content. Don't and don't try and Google ify it. If that's the word, which it completely isn't.

It is now.

Yeah. But don't, um, don't try and come up with all the tricks and, you know, do all the things that somebody said that the hacks, the SEO hacks and things because yeah, they work quickly, they work maybe in the short term until the kind of the search engines work out that you're, you're trying some trick and it's not real. I was reading something today that, um, somebody had done a big experiment in like populated some website with completely AI generated content that hadn't had any human input. They'd just churned this stuff out. And, um, to begin with, it was ranking really well, really high first three months, you know, they were like, we've cracked this. And then it completely vanished. It just stopped ranking when, you know, Google just does an update and gets cleverer and it's just like it's completely gone. The same as all these like helpful content updates did before when people were trying to like use backlinks or make up fake websites and fake blogs and all this. And Eventually it does catch up. And if you're not writing proper content for people that actually make sense, then, you know, eventually, sometimes faster than others, it's going to all fall apart. And loads of companies have been caught out by that.

I mean, how have they been caught out? Have they just literally not checked the content, not read the content, not seen if it makes sense? Or are they using like low cost AI solutions to generate it? I mean, how is it how is that happening?

I think this was an experiment.

Okay. Did they say which engines they'd use to create the content?

No, they didn't say. It was just basically churning stuff out and throw it on a website.

Because there's nothing inherently wrong with using AI to help you with your content.

Production. Google doesn't mind that, as far as we know. You know, it doesn't mind, um, that the AI is helping writer or providing ideas or redrafting it or whatever. But if it's, um, if it's just garbage, basically.

Then how does Google know it's garbage?

I don't know.

I must be getting better at figuring that out.

Yeah. I mean, it must have just been, um.

Well, it'll be using its own.

Really spammy stuff.

It'll be using its own tools in order to try and help figure out, you know, there's patterns appear. I mean, so yeah. Um, okay. So in many ways, nothing's changed because all of that is exactly what we were saying ten years ago when we were trying to get people to, you know, write content that people are actually willing, you know, will find useful and will help them solve their problems.

Yeah. And we've, we've been saying for a long time, you know, don't get hung up on, you know, stuffing this keyword into this phrase, you know. Um, it's more important to, if you're talking about, um, whatever CNC machining, to use lots of other words that relate to it so that it, um, it sort of flags up that it all makes sense. The semantic. Yeah.

If you write, if you're writing for people, then that will happen anyway.

Yeah, exactly.

You would naturally mention, you know, various things if you were talking and you wouldn't.

You wouldn't use the same word over and over again. You'd use different ways of describing it. So it's actually interesting to read. And you'd talk about things that are part of the machine or things that the machine can produce, or things that you use to clean it or service it. And you'd use all these other words that are related. And the engines now know that if you're talking about, you know, CNC machining, it's looking out for other things that are related to it. So it knows that what I'm seeing this and this and this and this, oh, this must be a really authoritative piece of work because it's, you know, it's ticking all the boxes in terms of this topic.

Yeah. I mean, citations are still, you know, that's still a key part of it. I mean, you know, the maturity of a domain name and the mentions and the links from other places and all that, it still all feeds in to help them understand, you know, what's enough, who's an authority and who isn't an authority. Yeah, yeah. It's just a massive, boring game, isn't it?

Well, I think, I think it's slightly more interesting now because of the um you know, you've got we've been using a tool to look at like prompts and what, and what people are typing in in order to get different companies actually to show up in the, the LMS. And so, um, instead of it just being, you know, X, you know, whatever HR systems, it's now, um, things like which HR systems are better than spreadsheets and emails for tracking issues in the healthcare industry or whatever. That's a lot more interesting than like, you know, HR systems. You're like, oh God, I can see, you can see the problems people are having. It's a lot clearer than, than having to sort of dig about and go, right, well, if they're looking for this, what do we think they're actually asking? Now, can I see exactly what they're actually asking? Yeah, it was actually really interesting. Like, okay, so, um, you know, that part of it, the, the, I'm replacing a spreadsheet with a system. There's a lot of stuff going on about that that was really interesting and just yeah, just the, the detailed questions people are, are asking gives you a real insight into your customers that you don't get just from, you know, two or three word queries. So actually, I think it's got less boring.

I'm glad you do.

I do, I do.

I think it's good. I think it's, it's good to get those insights. Um, I think people who've been using Google search for intelligently for years have been typing great long questions into Google anyway. And now they're doing, they're typing them into the LMS instead. Ultimately, you know, all of this stuff is hoping is in is done in the hope that when people are carrying out their research, that somehow, you know, a citation is going to magically turn into an enquiry. I mean, the model is still the same, isn't it? It's still a peer, a peer where people are when they're, when they're searching for stuff. and, um, hopefully, you know, get on onto their radar.

Yeah. The other quite interesting thing, which is kind of related is, um, Google search console now letting you filter for branded search. I mean, you could do it before, but you had to sort of manually do it, but they're actually introducing a branded search filter. I think recognising the sort of, um, the zero click stuff where people are seeing you somewhere not clicking through and then in their own time going back and finding you probably by name. And I think people are seeing, you know, branded queries go up. So instead of looking for, um, you know, digital marketing agency and immediately clicking on our website, they might be, might see something on social media or read something. And then later on, instead of having instead of clicking through from there, because obviously your LinkedIn's and your Facebook's and whatever don't like you clicking through. So you're sort of, they sort of prefer you to stay on. And people people tend not to to drift off when they're somewhere, but later on they'll they'll bear it in mind and or save it and then go and search for it by name later. And I think it's a way of, um, sort of measuring, it's a good thing because people are remembering who you are. They know who you are, it's your reputation. And it's easier to measure that now if it's, you know, immediately available in Google Search Console.

Yeah. And they've also obviously introduced the AI search into the Google console as well. It's powered by Gemini, I would imagine. And basically you can ask it questions or at least it says you can. I asked you a question last week and it doesn't I don't know.

Yeah.

Fair enough.

Yeah. I think I tried something as well. And it was like, no, I don't do.

Something that I could have done, like gone into the filters and written a regexp or whatever and figured it all out and done it that way myself. But I just go and find me this and I can't really do that.

No, it's, um, but it's it's all right. It's doing some simple things. I did manage to get it to just give me things with the right position between position five and twenty or something, and it went away and did that, and I could have done it, but it was a lot quicker just to ask it to do it. So that was quite useful.

Yeah. I think it's only a matter of time before it. I mean right now you could filter it for um, you know, only give me search terms that contain at least nine words sort of thing. You can do that. And that's going to do something potentially anyway, quite similar to the utterly AI which we've started looking at.

Yeah, I did do that in Search Console as well. I think I got anything over five words or something just to get this sort of, um, really nitty gritty stuff out of it. And that was really good as well. That was really useful. I mean, just looking at the high volume stuff, looking at the niche sort of stuff, just to get.

In higher intent.

Stuff. Yeah, probably. Well, not always. A lot of it was just quite clearly somebody who had like typed in their exam question. Okay, so it wasn't all high intent stuff. So you've still, you know, you've still got to use a bit of common sense to to then further filter it down. But you can then figure out what is the more high intense stuff and get a real insight into, okay, you know, we should be talking about this on this page and we're really not explaining that. And there's obviously people looking for it. So it's really helpful when you know, you're trying to write new content and stuff to see what you're, what you're missing and what's not on there or what needs to be explained differently.

Okay. Have you got anything interesting to talk about?

Yeah. You can now post a TikTok direct from HubSpot. That was exciting that that I discovered this morning.

Uh.

Yeah, both of us because it's, um, we schedule all our socials.

Why have they been reluctant to introduce that? Why has it taken them so long?

I don't know why it's taking them so long. I think I'd heard that it was coming. And every time I go in, I'd be kind of looking for it. I'm like, why is it not there yet? But it's come out now because we schedule all our social media from HubSpot and then had to go into TikTok separately and the TikTok scheduling things a bit of a faff. So being able to do it all from one place is.

And it's there and it works. It's done now.

And we haven't tried it.

But it's there.

It's there.

We're finally arrived.

We've connected HubSpot to TikTok. We haven't actually tried posting anything, but that'll be good. That's a nice, um, nice Monday morning bit of news for us.

Business is just when you schedule a post, it's just very annoying. Once you schedule, you can't.

You can't edit, you've got to delete it. If you make a mistake, you've got to delete it and start again. So it is a bit of a pain.

It sounds like it was. Yeah. It's funny because I find it such a well, you know, I do. I find it a really useful platform. It surprises me that it's got clunky stuff in there. You'd think it would all be pretty slick.

Yeah. I mean, I actually, you know, posting and editing videos, Instagram, you know, all the other ones is like copy it because it introduces new things and it's very seems to be kind of very agile in terms of what they introduce and, and how they change it. And the other ones obviously pick up on that. But yeah, the business suite and logging into the business suite is the most ridiculous thing in the world. The number of times you've got to, like, match the different shapes and then.

Right.

Then get an authentication code and then to go into the next bit. You've then got to match the shapes again and get another authentication code. You've got to do it about three times just to get in to look at anything. It is, mind.

You, at least you've managed to get in, which is more than you know, and actually do something in there, which is more can be said from for meta. Well, you basically just had to give up on that. Yeah. Don't do not speak to me.

About meta business manager. I'm not going there.

Okay. All right. So anything else that's not keyword related or like jumping up and down because you can now post TikTok videos from HubSpot.

Um, there was a, um, apparently quite viral report on LinkedIn saying that, um, ChatGPT is now twenty percent of search. It wasn't. It isn't. It's three percent. It's still three percent.

It seems tiny then, doesn't it? I mean, it's, you know, so it's bound to explode at some point when people realise, you know. Well, you say you read people realise that you can get much better information back. But it's also got that caveat at the bottom saying this might be completely wrong.

Yeah. And, and we know it can be.

So we absolutely know it can be. Yeah.

Even if you get someone from ChatGPT, if it's important, you're still kind of going go to Google and goo goo goo goo goo goo goo Google and research it a little bit more. But yeah, it still is about three percent. So all the people that were getting excited about being it being twenty percent were looking at slightly skew whiff data. And it's not.

Yeah. I mean, I think because I get lots of AI stuff in my TikTok feed, specifically Claude related stuff, because I'm a huge Claude, you just assume that there's this massive kind of momentum now. Yeah. Echo chamber. Yeah. That's right. When you actually look at the videos that I'm looking at, you think, oh, that's wow, that's so useful. That's really, really interesting, blah, blah, blah. And then you see, it's been viewed five hundred times or something and it's got twelve comments. Yeah. Whereas, you know, there'll be a cat falling off a fridge that's got, you know, like.

a million.

a million comment and two million views and stuff like that. So yeah, it's interesting. In fact, one of the people's whose videos keep cropping up in my timeline was actually saying, if you're, if you're seeing this, then you're probably like more advanced with AI than ninety five percent of the population. Something like the fact that this is appearing in your, in your timeline. It's part of your algorithm. Yeah.

Um, it's only about seven percent of the population are actually using AI.

For what though for search or I mean, AI adverts are mainstream. Yeah. I mean, you put the TV on and there's an advert for copilot where the guy is getting like, here's a load of he's a jumbled up day to turn it into a graph for me. And it goes and there it is. Done. I mean, you know, I look at this stuff and I just think, well, you know, we're embracing it and then some and we've got not just generative AI and it's writing content or anything like that. We're using it. Um, here's an example we've been working on and you're going to learn about this after the podcast.

Yeah, it's saving me loads of time.

I'm excited about it even more because basically, um, you know, we've got our own software that we wrote for managing the business and it helps us understand who we're working for and what we're trying to deliver for them and what each piece of that work is valued at, etc., which, you know, we wrote our own because we wanted something we wanted to, to be done a specific way. It's not the project. It's not a project management tool. It's almost like the agency management tool, if you like kind of thing. Um, and last week I wanted, I wanted to create an easy way to replicate the deliverables across into boards, specifically.

To stop me whingeing and start to do it manually.

Manually. Which is fair enough. And it was always the plan when we rewrote the software that that's what we would do. And so yes, you know, we created a thing where you click a button, download a CSV file, and then you just tell Claude core work, say, right, here's the CSV file and go and create the boards in Monday, and then put in the put in the disciplines that are going to be required to deliver those pieces of work, the deliverables. And it was great. And it's.

Really good. Yeah.

And then earlier today, and this is how quickly it's moved earlier today, I said, I said to Phil, right, I want to be able to grab some data and then I can ask core work to actually turn that data into a report. So we can say to clients, by the way, this is what we're working on for you this month. These are all these are the descriptions, and this is what each of these pieces of work is going to cost. Um, just, just as a sort of, you know, um, to give clients a heads up. I mean, we meet most clients weekly anyway so they know what we're working on, but it was just a kind of nice to have. It's now twenty to four.

Yeah.

And we no longer need the Monday button. And we know the way that Phil did that. He created a button which basically grabs Jason. Um, which is just dates. I think of it as a chunk of data, a Json file, which Cowork Claude could consume. Yeah. But now we've changed it and we've gone for the an MC P approach. So MC P model context protocol is a, it's Anthropic's created this. It's an open source protocol in order to let AI talk to anything else.

So.

You know, for example, if you want it to talk to GitHub or you want it to talk to HubSpot, or you want it to talk to Salesforce, you just use this MC P protocol.

Okay.

So we've now incorporated the MC P protocol into our, our own, our, our own app. So now within cloud Cowork, you can just ask the tool that we have that has all the deliverables and all the everything that everything that we're working on, just interrogate it and it'll give you any information that you want.

Right?

And I'm going to, I'll take you through that. You can do that after we've finished this podcast today. And so already like the Monday button, we haven't removed it yet, but we can get rid of that now because rather than actually say like, download the CSV file and then, and then with a using a Claude skill that we've already that we've fine tuned and, and kept, we can get Claude to now go and populate Monday.

All right. So we don't need to export it and then put it in a folder, literally be.

Able to say go, go to Redmond and grab um, this client's, um, work for this month and create corresponding boards.

On Monday.

And then go and have a cup of tea.

Oh, so much more tea's going to be involved.

That has happened like in the, in the space of a few days a week. It's kind of it's evolved that quickly. And the speed with which we can implement this stuff is, is off the scale. You know, people are talking about with AI that people are going to be made redundant. And we don't need a we don't need as many people because we're using AI. And there is an element of that, although, you know, I'm saying, okay, I personally think, you know, if you get AI to do everything, then who's going to buy your shit? Because no one's going to have a job, no one's gonna have any money. So it's utter nonsense when you think about it. But in terms of the productivity and the speed with which you can go idea, oh, it works now. Now it's refined and I'm using it in my daily life is breathtaking.

Yeah.

It's utterly crazy.

Yeah. But you've still got to, you've still got to know how to do it. You've still, you've got to know that it's possible and you've got to know how to do it. I mean, that's, um, I'm still slightly like, what are you talking about with that? But I'm sure it'll all become clear.

It's just a language, a common language that's been created so that if you create this, this MCP server and you allow AI agents to then connect to it so that they can talk to the data.

So it's like the, what was it called?

It's like an API, but it's almost.

Like, yeah, you kind.

Of don't really need an API now know because you can just well, it's you know, you have to create the MCP server, but, but it's it's um, but the AI will do that for you. It's quite.

Yeah.

And you just think, I don't know, I don't know where it's going because it's, you know, the speed with which we've done it and the incredible utility that it brings is, is um, I mean, Phil is a fantastic quarter. He's been courted since God was in short pants. And we've gone through iterations of software both for ourselves and for clients over the years. And, you know, the whole process is like, and from my point of view, I'm quite often the person who's, who's kind of saying, well, this is, this is what I need from it. So, you know, and it's like, great. I give him an idea and three or four days later, you know, he'll come back, he'll have implemented it. And yeah, that's, that's good. Or that's not quite what I need or whatever. Another three or four days. Whereas now when I'm talking to him, fire up a, you know, a Google.

Chat.

While I'm chatting to him. He's actually putting the instructions in and then and then he'll quite often say, while we're still chatting, that's it implemented. Go and try it. Go and check. Is that what you wanted? You know, that is clearly putting people out of work. Yeah. But at the same time it's.

But then there's.

Incredible.

Creating these, um, the LLM functionality. I mean, you know, somebody is telling the LMS how to do this.

Yeah, yeah, I should, I think those people are getting paid.

I know, I know, but um, so that's kind of like vibe coding isn't it? You know, he's instead of actually writing the code, you're going, I want you to make a thing that does this and letting it all go off. That's the that's what you're calling it, isn't it? You're calling it vibe coding.

Yeah. That's right. So it's well, vibe is a product isn't it.

Is it?

Yeah. I think vibe is a natural product. Claude chord is um, is exactly the same in that you just, you know, you literally just talk to it now, you know, you will create spaghetti code. You will create garbage apps with it because, well, for a million reasons. But um.

Yeah, simple things like this. Yeah.

It is, uh, this is, this is all a bit rambling because I'm, I'm in awe of it.

Yeah.

Equally, you know, concerned about, you know, the.

Generation.

Coming in behind us and we're like, well, you know, all of that stuff that you needed to do, you don't anymore.

You know, you know, we're, we're the junior jobs because.

Yeah.

Instead of hiring an assistant, you're just getting Claude to do it. So where are the entry level jobs?

Are you getting Claude to do it? If you use Claude? I mean, you've got gems with Gemini, but Claude skills, you can go out and find Claude skills. So, you know, there's a Claude skill that will, you know, help you write copy a certain way. There's a Claude skill that will help you implement a brand or help you develop a brand or, you know, so there's, there's tons of these skills, which you can literally go and copy plug it into a tool like Claude Claude code, um, or quad core work. Core work is yeah, an incredibly useful and yeah, I don't know, I, I, I kind of can't even really communicate where my brain is on it because I'm still sort of in awe of what you can do with it. Yeah, but probably concerned in equal measure.

But then again, you know, there were, there were people whose jobs were to like send faxes and photocopy things. I mean, those jobs disappeared, but, um, they went somewhere.

Well, here.

You're.

Probably talking about teams of people that are no longer needed, you know, a really good quarter with something like Claude Chord could absolutely replace a team of four or five people.

Yeah.

Just without any shadow of a doubt.

Also like data analysts. Um, you know.

Because now you don't need to be able to speak SQL or BigQuery or you don't have to be able to speak. Um, what's it called? Power BI. You can literally just ask it what you want. Tell me this, tell me that, and it'll go off and it'll do the interpretation into the, into the into the SQL language or whatever it needs to use, and it'll do it for you. Yeah. I mean, we seem to be kind of going down a rabbit hole of.

We're all doomed. I know, but it is. Um, it's just because it's moving so fast.

The speed of it. Yeah. Maybe it isn't for a lot of people.

You know, I'm sure there's still lots of.

People out there that are just not actually embracing it and not aware of it, still doing things long handed way. Um, I think that absolutely must be.

But then there's, you know, there's still people who are getting to grips with email. So, you know, there's always the early adopters and then then everyone else. Yeah. But it's, it seems to be moving so fast that it's every time a new piece of technology gets introduced, it seems to get adopted. It seems to go through that sort of product lifecycle faster and faster and faster.

This one's been breathtaking. Yes. This one has been. Yeah. Yeah. Even this time last year, we said this in a podcast a couple of weeks ago, like this time last year, you couldn't do the things I've just been talking about. It was clunky.

It was still pretty iffy, and it was hallucinating. You know, it hallucinates a lot less, I would say. Now.

If you like phoning it in, it's a dream come true because it literally will. But if you're prepared to put the work in, what it can do is, is it can just help you to take the grind out of some of the things that you have to do, and actually focus on the good stuff where you're where your brain is adds the most benefit. Yeah, exactly.

And so yeah, it can sift through stuff and then, you know, give you the things that you actually have to think about rather than you having to do the, the donkey work of sifting through and pulling out information, it can kind of get halfway there and then you do the interesting stuff. Mhm.

Mhm. What else have you got on your list to talk about?

That's about it.

One of the things that we're going through this just now is we are changing. I'm not going to say our brand, certainly changing our logo. And we've had lots of conversations about that. And I guess people listening there must be there must be people who've gone through the same process. Things like changing logos can go really well and it can go spectacularly wrong. And, you know, I'm probably a lone voice in that. I like what the guys have done with the change to, to the logo. I mean, they've looked at fonts and things as well, you know, and, and so we've got this new logo, which we're rolling out and, and it kind of makes sense. It tells the story. Yeah. You know, works with the name of the company and everything else. It's good. I'm still, you know, slightly nervous about it because you know, our brand, our logo rather is, is, is well known and really well, well established. And I would be interested if anyone.

Has ever been through this.

Ever been through that. Yeah. Because, you know, there's, there's lots of examples of it, of it not going well. And I think it's, it's going to be interesting as we start to roll it out. I think whether or not it turns out to have been the right thing to do.

But also I think sometimes you can worry too much again. It's like it affects us, but, um. Most people go, oh, right. Okay. And then, you know, carry on and they forget that it was ever something different, potentially.

Yeah. I mean, we changed our name back in two thousand and six from Scott Webb to Red evolution. So, you know, we've been through, um, sort of one of these sort of dramatic changes before and this is, you know, literally just just the logo changing. Yeah.

Um, yeah. So it's how we look, but not who we are or the name or anything.

Our brand as such. No, it's only, it's only a visual representation of our brand. And in that sense, I can see why it's a, it's a better, it's a better option than, than we've got at the moment, because it actually does. Even the, you know, the motif itself tells a story, which is quite.

Nice at the moment. Our logo is an R, an E, and we actually don't ever call ourselves r e. So it's, it's probably slightly confusing, whereas we make something that um is slightly more in line.

Squiggle.

Yeah, exactly. But, but the meaning behind the squiggle is a bit more in line with, um, with the name. Really?

Yeah. And what I'm going to try and get back in the habit of doing is there's so many things this week have, uh, occurred to me that, um, you know, that we could be talking about in the podcast and I don't write them down. So when it comes to actually doing it, I'm like, mm, I know there was some interesting stuff and I can't remember what it was.

I know there's, um, there is a lot going on.

There is a lot going on.

Yeah. I, um, I make notes and then, but they're on the wrong order and then they don't make any sense. At least I manage something.

I used to find. I just kept a little pad by me, by my desk and just scribbled things down. And that helped. None of which is very interesting for anybody who's still listening to this nonsense.

Sorry. They're not.

Okay. So, uh, we will do our homework and try harder. Um, for the next episode, I hope you are going to be coming back and listening to us again. So it's, uh, Digital Marketing From The Coalface and speak to you next time, speak at your next time.