Need A New Website? Don't Hire A Web Design Agency - Episode 22

If you need a website, don't hire a web design agency to do it.

Which sounds incredibly controversial to me.

It kind of does. And I get that. I'm not entirely saying that. I'm not absolutely saying if you want a website, don't hire a web design agency. What we found when a web design company and there are agencies out there who are set the stall out totally as web design agencies, they almost always produce a website which is usually decent looking, you know, credible web design agencies who are only interested in creating a nice looking website. Nine times out of ten, those sites just they're not built in a way that's going to help the owner of the website, the business attract customers, attract opportunities. As in they're not well optimised. They haven't thought about what the end consumer of the website actually needs. Okay, welcome back to Digital Marketing From The Coalface. Um, I'm chatting with Alex today and interesting subject which I've suggested we ever talk about working title. Uh, if you need a website, don't hire a web design agency to do it.

Which sounds incredibly controversial to me.

Yeah, it kind of does. And I get that. Um, okay. I guess I'm not entirely saying that I'm not. I'm not absolutely saying if you want a website, don't hire a web design agency when I'm coming from really is that in our experience, when we get a new client and they have a website, which might even be a new website, this happened quite recently. Brand new website.

Yep.

And we look at the website that's been created, it's always obvious to us if the website has been created by a web design company, as opposed to a company who are geared up to help businesses grow using their website.

Yeah, I know the exact example you're talking about, and I think so. I think what you're basically saying is that web design agencies that don't have that kind of understanding are what like kind of all style, no substance.

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I always think that a website, if you, if you go to an agency, whether they're a web design agency or a digital marketing agency, a growth agency, whatever they want to be, my view is that good agencies, any good agency has the ability to produce a website that looks great. Yeah, that's that's a pretty shiny. Absolutely. I mean, and not only that, you know, user friendly, perhaps just just generally a pretty good product. And that has to be the case because there are alternatives. Like you can go and sign up for a squarespace account or a Wix account, and you can have a really nice looking website for pretty much no money at all. And absolutely for peanuts. So, you know, if there's an agency setting this stall out as a web design company or a company who can create, build design websites, then you, they have to be hitting a certain.

Level, be kind of competitive with that offering. That's right. Absolutely, absolutely.

So what we found is that when a web design company and there are agencies out there who are set the stall out totally as web design agencies, they almost always produce a website which is usually decent looking. I mean, all right, there are agencies out there that usually, you know, one person operations who produce dreadful websites still. And that's incredible. But there are still plenty of them out there. but let's just leave them to one side and just go for, you know, credible web design agencies who are only interested in creating a nice looking website. Mhm. Um, I don't know, nine times out of ten, those sites just, they're not built in a way that's going to help the owner of the website, the business attract customers, attract opportunities, generally speaking, uh, as in they're not well optimised. They haven't thought about what the end consumer of the website actually needs.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I guess that's the thing. I've a couple of things that I'll try and articulate. The first is, yeah, it comes back to what we were saying before, doesn't it, about who your website is for. It's like, if you don't understand your audience, their wants, their desires, their needs, you can't design a good website for them because, you know, there's that fundamental mismatch there, isn't there? People are going online with specific expectations. And if you don't learn what those expectations are and meet them, then people aren't going to have a good time on your website. And that is ultimately all your website is for. There are only websites that is successful when you kind of match them to the audience. I guess the other thing, though, is that do you not think there's an argument to be made here for like the level of involvement that a client has? Like, if you are running a business and you're producing all your own content in-house, and you just want the kind of pretty template to go and inject all of your expert knowledge into, it's probably okay, right? To just hire somebody who makes a pretty website because you can fill in the blanks, you can do all the stuff that they're going to miss out. I guess the problem arises then if I'm kind of getting where you're coming from, when you kind of go to somebody, you don't have content, you don't have a clear content strategy, and you're saying, you know, build me a website and grow my business. And somebody's saying, okay, I can do that. But all they can really do is build a shiny website. Yeah.

Okay, so rolling that back a bit, um, you mentioned content strategy. You mentioned, I think did you mention ideal customers?

I think things like a few buzzwords were in weren't there? Yeah. No I'm not.

I'm not picking you up on the buzzwords. Um. I'm not, um. I'm I'm meaning that, you know, the terminology that you used is, is the terminology that, that a good agency would use. They would start by trying to understand, you know, who the website is for, you know, i.e. who are your ideal customers? What do they look like, you know, and they would also be interested in what you were trying to achieve. Yeah. So it's the shiny bit, the great looking website of the equation, as I've already said, is, is just a given. Yeah, yeah. Any agency is going to do that as long as they're a credible agency.

Yeah. In a way, it's kind of like fundamental unpicking of what a website is, isn't it? I mean, it's, it's a bit like a sports car. A sports car is the engine really that's what you're paying.

For.

On cars you can't get away from, can we? But but it's the whole idea, isn't it? You know, people see the flashy Ferrari. They want the flashy Ferrari. What they're actually paying for is the engine and all the work and engineering that went into making a kind of top of the range, world class sports car. And I guess it's the same with websites. A lot of businesses want a shiny website, but it's a fundamental misunderstanding of what a website really is. A website is just the content, right? Really, you know, if we take things right back to to brass tacks, a website is only as good as the content on it. The rest of it is just window dressing. And sure, that window dressing is important. It needs to look attractive, it needs to be pretty. But all of that should be in service of getting people to engage with the content. And if that's missing, you've got a problem.

Yeah. So are we saying that the problem is actually not the web design agencies who don't build websites with business growth in mind? Or are we saying it's the clients who are pushing back and saying, look, don't ask me all these hard questions.

Just build me a great looking website. Yeah, it's all the client's fault. I mean, I mean, you know, I think that's the thing, isn't it? You don't a web design agency that doesn't really specialise in business growth wouldn't even know how to ask those questions. I think it's fair to say that when we go into an engagement now, it's very different to the way we probably went into engagements to begin with. Right. We're not going in and saying, what do you want it to look like? Or what special features do you want? Or can you like spec us out all the different? Like, yeah.

Send us a list of five websites that you like kind of thing.

Yeah. I think, you know, we're at a stage now where we go to people and we say, you know, what are you trying to achieve with this website? Who are you trying to appeal to? And then we go away and do the other stuff ourselves and we say, you know, it needs to do this. It needs to have this functionality. It needs to look like this. But that's the reverse, I think, of what a lot of agencies do.

Well, it's the yeah, I would say that web design agencies don't do that. Um, they, they probably are concentrating on the aesthetics and they're saying, you know, show us ten examples or five examples of websites that you like. What colors do you like? Yeah.

Do you know, I'm not going.

To say, do you want the logo to spin? Because I mean, that's obviously back to nineteen ninety when that was the thing to do. But I'm I'm kind of trying to get to the essence of this subject around, you know, making the bold statement that if you need a website, don't ask a web design agency to do it. I mean, so if we accept that pure web design agencies are not the right people, certainly in isolation. I mean, if you have a really good marketing department within your.

And you don't need this. Yeah. If you don't need, you.

Need a transactional relationship because you've got all of the other stuff covered, then sure, use a web design agency.

Somebody just to make what you're producing pretty. But if you're not producing buckets of content, you don't know exactly who you're appealing to, then yeah, find somebody that can do that for you.

Yeah. That's right. So what we're really saying is, or what we want to try and do with this podcast, if we're going to help people is say, like, how do we, how do we help people listening to this to suss out whether the company, the agency or agencies they're talking to are well equipped to create a website that's going to add value to their business.

I'm going to go out on a limb and you feel free to shoot me down for this. But I would say it, probably one of the best metrics for measuring that is what do agencies say about the work they've done in the past, right? On a portfolio page or, you know, a kind of, I don't know, a case study page where they're explaining work that they've done for previous clients. Are they talking about the growth they've driven? Are they talking about how the design helped to send customers to the site and grow their business? Or are they talking about the flashy features that they have? I mean, I've seen web design agency portfolios where, you know, all of their kind of things are just talking about how they came up with a new brand color or new brand icons and stuff like that. There's no kind of talk in there about, you know, we grew organic traffic or we built a website that drove business growth. So I think that's probably, I would say, a good place to start.

Mhm. Yeah. I mean, checks notes. I mean, I think. On our portfolio page. We've probably we might be a little bit vague about some of that stuff ourselves. I think we're all probably guilty of it. But yeah, I mean, any conversation that we would have, um, would start with what? Why do you need, why do you think you need a new website?

Yeah, absolutely.

I think if, if you're approaching agencies and they're not kind of gently pushing back to say, what's driving this?

Yeah.

Because I mean, the answer to that might be, well, our website's an embarrassment. It was built five years ago. It looks really dated. It makes us look weak or it makes us look like we're old fashioned as a business, for example.

But that is a very valid point, isn't it? I mean, and I do think that shows a certain level of understanding of your audience. If you know that people are looking at your website, potential customers are looking at your website and saying, this looks too outdated for me to do business with them, then that's a valid thing. I think that's very different from, yeah, if you if we pushed back and said, you know, why are you doing this? And somebody said, oh, I just, I need a modern website to make my business grow. Then we'd be a bit like, well, you know, hang on a minute.

So we're not saying that a good outcome doesn't require the skills of a web design company or a web design team. We're not saying.

That. No. We're just saying that it should be informed by, I guess, a sound understanding of or a goal. I guess you have to have a goal, right? A good goal.

A good goal.

A good goal. You know what? I'm trying.

Not really.

A web design team is all good and well, but first of all, you need somebody who's going to sit down, hold your feet to the fire and say, why are you doing this? And to have a valid reason for doing it.

And one of those valid reasons might be just as we've just said, our website looks rubbish and we want it to look great and that's all we want.

Yeah.

And that might be valid. That might be okay. Might it.

Yeah. I think, I think it can be. Um, I think you know, better ones are, you know, I know that I'm not reaching a specific subset of my audience. I know that, you know, I'm leaving money on the table. Those are the I think those are the conversations we really like having with clients, aren't they? They come to us and they say, you know, I know that my website isn't doing as well as it could do because it's not reaching these people. That's a great starting point.

Mhm. Do you think that some businesses are approaching the whole web redesign web design? Um, from the point of view that the website isn't maybe delivering anything of value in terms of enquiries and new customers and growth? Um, and they think a website redesign is what's required to make that happen.

Yeah. I think that's the, I don't know, I don't want to say the like, kind of the, the most common, but I think it's a very common thing, isn't it? It's like, um, people know that something is wrong. Fundamentally, their website isn't performing the way they want it to. And the easiest thing to blame is the aesthetics, right? It's to say, oh, it obviously doesn't look right or we need to redesign the website and then they'll just go and find somebody who says, oh yeah, we can design you a new shiny website. That'll do better. There's a problem and they're aware of it, but maybe they don't know how to kind of unpick that and identify the the root cause.

Yeah. Okay. Um, so what, how can we help people make, you know, make the right decision when it comes to finding somebody to help them? What? I mean, what, what's like almost like a checklist. Can we, can we tease out what a checklist might, might be like? So okay, you've, you've, you've, you've decided for any number of reasons that your website is no longer fit for purpose. So not unreasonably, you're going out looking for a web design agency to help you. And it could be that you, you will find a web design agency who will ask all the right questions and actually will take the right approach, but choose to call themselves a web design agency agency instead of a digital marketing agency or a growth agency.

A full service.

Agency. Yeah. I mean, you know, horses for courses. I mean, you know, if your customer thinks that you're that web design agencies do all that. And to a certain extent they should. Then it's fair enough, I suppose, that you go and look for a web design agency. But how what what some of the just key things that you should either look out for or ask in order to make sure that you're getting the right team?

Yeah. I mean, you said yourself, if they ask all the right questions. So I guess that's a good place to start, right? What kind of questions would you expect the the right kind of agency to be asking? For us, I guess it's always kind of what are your objectives? What are you trying to achieve with your website? Who are your target audience? How do you plan to grow it?

Okay, so the starting point, or rather, one of the first questions that you would expect to try to think if this is a, this is the kind of direct question that we would ask, but like, okay, you've you want to have a conversation about upgrading, changing, redesigning your website, as we've already said. So like, okay, what's driven this decision? Why do you want to do that? Okay. That's a, that's. so if this, you know, we would expect that somebody who's, you know, coming at this from the right place would ask that question. Yeah.

Absolutely.

Okay. And secondly, secondly, they might ask, what does the website currently do for the business? You know, how many enquiries does it generate? Does it II does the website.

Yeah, that's a really good point. That's a really good point actually, isn't it? Yeah. Like how are things currently? And they'd, you'd expect, I guess, a good agency to dig through your kind of analytics data, your Google search console data and actually look at what's working and what isn't. And maybe that's another really good point. Maybe it's that they wouldn't necessarily come to you and say, you know, how is the website doing? They would say, can I have access to this information so that we can work out what is and isn't working?

Yeah. That's right. I mean, one of the first things we would do is we would want access to some of the things that you've just mentioned, Search Console, which we talked about in one of the previous podcasts, if anyone's, you know, not sure what that is in the podcast about some of our favorite go to tools that help us do our job. And you would want to look at Google Analytics, and you would want to basically look at all available data.

Because that shows you, doesn't it? I guess at a fundamental level, like which bits of the website are working, which ones aren't, where you're kind of getting traffic, where you're missing opportunities. So yeah.

I mean, because a lot of the time a website redesign might not be what you actually need. You actually need what you've got knocking into shape, for example.

Well, that's exactly it, isn't it? I mean, a lot of the time, like I say, people come with a problem. My website's not performing properly. I need it redesigned. We'll look into the data and we'll see. Actually, it's just because you're not kind of you know, you've not published the right content. You're not you're not kind of tapping into the right audience. So yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. And all the information you need to make an informed decision like that is readily available. Yeah, it's all there, isn't it?

Absolutely.

Um, but, you know, it could be that the website is not performing and it looks awful. So that's fine. I mean, yeah, a redesign is, isn't going to be a bad thing to look at, but websites that don't look particularly great can still perform really well and deliver a lot of value into a business.

Yeah.

What else is in place?

I mean, we started this out by saying, you know, we'd recently kind of done this work for a client where they came to us with a very flashy website. It actually turned out that the website that they'd replaced with the flashy website was performing way better, despite the fact it looked like it had been designed in the kind of early nineties. Right. It performed better. I don't think aesthetically pleasing is maybe as important as a lot of people think.

No, I, I personally think it's a website should look great and it should just be a given, but it's not the main driver. And if that's if the look and feel of the site is, well, I guess people decide they want to redesign their website quite often because they think it looks awful.

Yeah.

But like that customer came to us and their website didn't. It actually looked quite nice.

Beautiful. Yeah. It just didn't have any content. Didn't say anything.

It wasn't well optimised. It wasn't going to be easy to expand it. It didn't have any content in it. So it didn't it didn't actually tell the world. You know how they help.

Yeah.

It didn't really. Yeah. I mean, it's hard to say, isn't it? I mean, once you'd got past the, the veneer, um it was very easy to establish that it was completely wrong. And this I'm sure that we're working on something else just now that is almost exactly the same where they had a website that actually, on the face of it looked quite good.

But as soon as you start digging into it.

Yeah, yeah, actually Julie's on the other side of the office and she's just, uh, shouted across to me. I mean, obviously, obviously we don't, we don't name and shame in these podcasts, but yeah, we've, we've got another one, which interestingly, in this case, um, it was a growth focused agency that had been working on it, but we very quickly established that, well, I don't know, for whatever reason, um, you know, and it could be complex. I'm not going to go into it, and I'm certainly not going to slag anybody off. But it became pretty obvious to us quite quickly that yeah, the yeah, it just the website, although it looked quite shiny.

Wasn't really wasn't. Yeah. Doing what they wanted it to do.

Yeah. It's not unusual this I mean, you know, going back to our car, car talk, I mean, you know, one of our customers, um, Pugsley and Lewis, who restore Aston Martins, they often talk about cars coming into the workshop that look fantastic. And then as soon as they start looking at them to debug them and make sure that they're going to be a reliable, um, toy for the people who've got enough money to buy these things. Um, they find some incredible things. I mean, you know, they found a car that had a chassis that had been repaired with an, with an opened out baked bean can.

Yeah.

Which was hilarious. And they found a car that had the badge like a nice metallic badge of the people who'd restored it. And when they peeled it off, it was covering a rusty hole in a door shut. I mean, it was. They found some incredible things, and I'm too I'm not going to say what they call them, but, um, they call these things, um, shite. Well, the word rhymes with bankers. So if you think shiny bankers but not bankers, that's what they call these cars. Yeah. Um, and it's Julie's put her head in her hands. Well, I didn't use the word. I was just trying to get the concept.

We're gonna end up with that R rating after all.

But yeah, I mean, these things are, you know, you know, they look great, but actually they're just horrendous. Now maybe, you know, that's a bit extreme when it comes to websites, but it's not uncommon for websites to look great and actually not add any value, not drive any traffic.

Not well, I think I have a, I have an example that's exactly like that. But for websites that I've worked on before, where somebody came to a previous agency I worked at and said, you know, this is the website. We've just paid an inordinate amount of money to have it built. Um, we've lost all our organic rankings. What's happened? It turned out somebody had uploaded the wrong robots.txt file. Um, which for people who don't know, it's that's a file that tells Google which pages of your website to crawl and how to crawl them. And it literally disallowed all the content.

When he says crawl, he means look at yeah.

Um, so basically somebody had built them a website, they'd put a file in that website that said to Google, please ignore everything on this website. And that's just, you know, a web design agency that lacked any real technical knowledge.

Yeah.

But a very simple mistake like that can have huge ramifications for a business.

So yeah, I mean, it really can. And you, you make a good point because we've come across that a lot where a simple technical exercise to basically say the search engines, these web pages have now got different addresses. And it was this, it's now this, it was this, it's now this is a very simple exercise, which you should always do. And the number of times we've seen that missed.

Because it was a wrong.

Design agency who built the site, and they just didn't think about the ramifications of what they were doing.

I mean, this is the thing, isn't it? I mean, the thing about SEO nowadays is that it is a very kind of developed and technical subject, and you can't just kind of dabble in it if you don't have that kind of knowledge and experience in-house, you are going to make a mistake of some description. It might not be that obvious, but you're going to have missed opportunities. You're going to have optimised things incorrectly with whatever I think. I think the point is, you really do need somebody who kind of does SEO all day, every day to kind of sit down and look over your shoulder whenever you're building a website. I think that's fair to say, isn't it? We don't really we don't really launch sites until somebody's been over them and said, okay, is all this optimised? Well, yeah.

Um, another side, another way of coming at this because just in case anybody's confused, um, here at Red evolution, we do design and build websites, but we don't set our stall out as a web design company. Web design development is one of the things that we do, and it's an important aspect of the business, but it's not in isolation. It's it's not it's not the only thing that we do. And just as you have web design agencies who don't really understand the importance of the work that they're doing in a bigger context, and you also have marketing agencies, maybe even digital marketing agencies, which is a sort of broadly what I would call red evolution. But you have digital marketing agencies who don't have in-house expertise around web development. And that is also, in my view, problematic. And I know that this sounds like I'm saying what you need is a full service agency like Red evolution. I'm not saying that. I'm saying you need all of the the bits working in harmony, whether it's a web design agency, working with your marketing agency, also working with maybe a sysops type person who understands the technical aspects of of the website hosting and everything else to get this all working together. Now that's we do all of that in-house and, and that's great. And I think that's, I think that's a good solution. I do understand why some marketing agencies don't because when you speak to them, they're like, oh, building websites is so hard. It's like you always lose money on them. It always has what we would broadly call feature creep. And, and it's just.

I think those are all.

Decided not to do it anymore. You know, I mean, we just, we now outsource it. We don't do it anymore. We've got this white label agency that do that for us. And it's an approach, but I think it's a a problematic approach.

Yeah. I mean, you know, you said you didn't want to say to people, you need a full service agency. I, you know, I'll say it, you know, at the risk of being the, the bad guy, um, I think at the end of the day, these things are just too complex and there's too many moving parts for you to just take one side of it and do that. Well, it all has to be done well in tandem. And yeah, sure, like you say, I guess you can get somebody who is going to outsource elements of it to other people or whatever. But ultimately, what you really need for a website to be successful is for it to look attractive, to work well, and also to have all the kind of nuts and bolts that make it successful and easy to market. And if you haven't got somebody who's going to kind of sit across both sides of that and say, these two things have to work together, you're in for a bad time.

Okay. So if we're going back to helping people who are listening to this, make sure that they hook up with a good agency. So asking them like, you know, who does, who does the design in your agency? Yeah. Who does the technical work? Who builds the site in your agency? Who's the one that sets up the hosting and does all that? Who takes care of making sure the content is well optimised in a way that the search engines are going to be able to easily read and in inverted commas, understand? Those are the questions. And what you need is, you know, if you're getting, you know, oh yeah, John does that. Oh yeah. John also does that. And John also does that. It's like, wait a minute. Yeah. Something might not quite be right here. You might have, you know, John might be amazing. Good, good. You know where to go, John sort of thing. But, um, if you're not getting to talk to the people who handle all the different aspects of it, then that might be a sign that they are not the agency you're looking for. Maybe.

Yeah, absolutely. I will say there's a flip side to that too, though, which is that I've worked at and, and worked with agencies that kind of, you know, they have one person to do each job and they have, you know, kind of thirty odd members of staff and somebody to look after the SEO. Somebody will look after the kind of technical, somebody will look after the design, but they never actually talk to each other. And that's something to be really wary of too, because ultimately joined up. Yeah. If all these teams are kind of siloed and don't kind of interconnect and don't talk to each other and don't kind of sanity check each other's work and say, oh, hang on a minute, why are you doing that? You end up with a situation where, you know, you may well be given a website that technically does all these things, just not in a way that makes any real sense.

It certainly sounds like a dysfunctional agency.

Yeah, I mean.

Uh, yeah, it'd be incredible. I mean, the way that that would manifest itself would be. Yeah, the, the output would be pretty awful, but I surely that would only happen if like the teams were all geographically spread out. They never talked to each other.

No. I mean, I.

Know what Zoom was for or is that not the case.

No. I've seen, you know, I've seen situations where a designer and a developer will build a website, pass it over to somebody who is going to optimise the website after the fact as if, you know, you can just kind of take something and just kind of slap some SEO on it. Um, obviously it doesn't work like that. Obviously, you know, kind of when you're designing a website, you should sit down with the kind of content people first and say, what pages do we need? How do we need them to be interlinked? What kind of, you know, what does the site need to look like in order to work well in search? I think often it's kind of like an afterthought. It's something that's kind of tacked on the end, and I'd be very wary of that. I guess that comes down to talk to agencies that you're thinking of hiring about their processes, maybe kind of interrogate how they're going to build the website and, you know, whether they're going to do the kind of discovery work first or whether they're just going to kind of build something pretty and then try and force it to match what you need. Um, yeah.

Okay. So if we were to distill this right down, if you, if your conversation, your initial conversations with a potential web design partner are along the lines of, what would you like it to look like? As opposed to what do you need it to do?

Yeah.

In very simple terms, then they are probably not the right people to be talking to.

Yep. I would say that's very fair. I mean, ultimately what your website should look like is probably informed by what you want it to do, right? That's something we're probably better placed to, to tell people than that sounds controversial. Um, uh, but, you know, at the end of the day, it shouldn't necessarily be a, you tell us what to build. It should be a, you tell us what you need and we'll tell you what it should look like and how it should work.

Yeah, yeah. That's right. Okay. And yeah, that that relationship, which is so important for success needs to be robust. I mean, going back to some of the clients that we've got, they will say to us something like, you know, we think this is okay, but if you don't, then tell us. Yeah. And that's great.

That's fantastic.

That's that shows us a very strong relationship. That's really, really, you know, trust, reliance, all of those things is good. Um, if you're working with an agency and you say or make that bit red and then and make that bit blue and make that text bigger and they just say, yes, okay, then.

Or just send your price. It's kind of.

Indicative of what a web design agency would do, as opposed to an agency who are looking at the whole thing from the customer's point of view and what you want the customer to do when they find the website.

Right? Because if somebody tells you to make something red, you'll go back to them and say, don't be stupid. Why isn't it green?

You do realise our website's red, right? Okay, um, I think we've covered that reasonably well. I didn't quite know where it would go. I mean, I thought the subject was interesting, if not, as you said, controversial. And don't hire a web design agency to redesign the website.

Yeah. I think it's a really important and valid point, isn't it? Because I think a lot of people are out there kind of thinking who, who is the best person to hire for this? And like you say, people go into these things with the kind of impression that I need my website to look nice. And I think that's part of the puzzle, but it's not the whole puzzle. And yeah, you should be working with an agency that that A is aware of that and be kind of helps you to figure out what you actually need.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, you've been listening to Digital Marketing From The Coalface and nobody's laughing, so I must have said that, right? Um, if you've got any.

Questions on this episode.

If you've got any questions, click on the contacts tab. Send us your questions if you'd like to come on the podcast then and talk about any aspect of digital marketing that you're. I'll use the word passionate about. Um, feel free to get in touch as well.

Why is it that you hate that word so much?

It's because it's overused. You know, it's, I suppose if you think about like, um, some of these reality programs on television, you know, the first thing you say, oh, I'm really passionate about this. And it's like, oh, you know, yeah, okay.

Show don't tell.

Yeah, I know, I maybe just showing my age, I don't know, I just find it, it's, it's, um, everybody's, um, passionate about.

Something.

Yeah.

Kind of a given, isn't it?

Yeah. I think, yeah, I'm not going to go into any more detail about that. I've already shot myself in the foot probably. But yeah, it's a word that I, it's the same as um professional. Yeah. Like, yeah, we, we need it to be really professional. And I don't think that means anything either, you know.

Are you paying for it then?

Yeah, I know. Yeah. It's like, okay, that's the end of this one and look forward to the next one.