Do You Really Know Your Customer? You Should, Here's How – Episode 59

Creating buyer personas is on the outside looking in. It feels like a waste of time. And it absolutely isn't. If you're serious about growing your business, you must understand not only who you want to sell your products and services to, but who will be the right people to sell those products and services to. If you want your business to grow, if you want to thrive.

Yeah. If you want to target everybody, you're going to need a massive budget. Now, on the basis that there are, you know, that nobody's got a bottomless pit of money to dig into in terms of marketing budget, narrow it down to the people that are actually going to be profitable.

Developing these personas really helps you as an organisation, understand who you really are and where you're trying to get to and how you're going to get there. It's not just some kind of airy fairy marketing exercise. It really.

Isn't. It kneels it down.

Okay, so welcome back to digital Marketing From The Coalface and all that bumping and banging you can hear is Julie, um, basically getting a microphone sorted out.

Sorry, multitasking and podcasting not a great idea. You have my full attention.

I feel honoured.

You should not very many people get my full attention.

No, I can imagine, um, what we're going to talk about today, uh, just me and Julie. Alex is, uh, having a day off. Uh, so it's just me and Julie, and we're going to talk about targeting the right people with your digital marketing. And you, uh, had a very interesting anecdote from a conference you were at recently because sometimes when and I assume it's all right to talk about that, even though it's, it was something you picked up at a conference. This isn't an original thought by us. It was something Julie picked up at.

A very good example. And it illustrates something.

But, um, yeah, so quite often people think, yeah, my ideal customer is in their sixties on their second marriage with a big house. Um, tell the story.

Yeah. So yeah, I think just almost moving back a little bit. It's like obviously, which I will rant about in a minute, your ideal customer, you can't just say, you know, we're targeting everybody. That makes no sense.

You can say, can't you?

You can.

But no, no, no you can. People do all the time. We go and meet them in this and we say who? Your ideal customers. And they say, oh, pretty much everybody.

And I will I will move on to why that's a terrible idea, because I get quite heated about that. Um, but yeah, there is an example. Even once you've narrowed it down, this, this example is why even just using demographics to narrow down your audience isn't necessarily enough. And you actually have to try and understand your customer base, understand the people that you're targeting. Um, more than just sort of a very broad. Well, it's like, it's these guys, you need to dig in a little bit more. So this is a great example. So and you could say that I'm targeting people who are male. Born in nineteen forty eight, raised in the UK on their second marriage and have a huge house. And they're, you know, they're wealthy and they're famous. So you think that that's quite specific. You know, I'm going to target these guys. Surely the same marketing messages and the same, you know, imagery and everything would and the same products would appeal to both those guys, don't you think?

I would say yeah, absolutely.

Okay. So, um, yeah. Prince Charles, male, born in nineteen forty eight, married twice, you know, wealthy big house, um, also Ozzy Osbourne, exactly the same demographic. Now, there may be the occasional product that you would target at both of them, but I think your messaging for Prince Charles and Ozzy Osbourne would probably be different. And which is why you actually need to kind of figure out who you're targeting and what they're all about and what their background is and what makes them tick before you just stick a message out there and think, yeah, all these guys are the same. They're absolutely not.

I think it's one aspect of marketing that certainly coming at marketing as an engineer, um, like, like what I did, uh, I did kind of struggle with it. I did the whole buying persona thing. How did I struggle with it? But clearly, based on the conversations we have with people, people do still struggle with this idea of who are your ideal customers? Who are you? I hear you targeting.

Conversations with people and said, right, so, so who is the, you know, who's the market? Who are you targeting for this? And they would go, um, they actually talk about the product. They go, well, you know, people who buy pensions, it's like, no, that's, that's a product. The pensions, the product, the people, right? Who are these people? What do they do? Where do they live? What do they do in their spare time? You know, what, what sort of um, education have they got? Because that affects how you speak to them and you need to get dug in. And yeah, I know when we first started talking about buyer personas and things, you know, people would just go, oh, what a flipping waste of time and they would just go, really, do we have to do this? But when you start actually talking to them and go, right, you know, think about your best customers, you know, do you know them? What do they do in their spare time? Do they have families? You know, what are their priorities? What, what makes them tick? What, what problems are they having? You know, what, what is it they want to do and why are they speaking to you?

Where do they how do they consume content? Do they like watching videos? Do they like reading blog posts? Do they like downloading things? Do they visit websites? Do they use Facebook? Do they use Twitter? Do they use LinkedIn?

Do they go on social media at all? Because a lot of people like, right, yeah, we're gonna do Facebook and like, so who are you targeting? And they start talking about these people and, and what do they use? They, oh, they don't use social media at all. Well, like, why on earth are you putting Facebook ads out there then? So, you know, you need to know, you need to need to understand them in quite a lot of depth to get everything right, because you could be sort of putting a message out there about, you know, this will save you time and the person's retired and they've got all the time in the world. And that's really not what they're wanting to hear about at all. So it's really important. But when, when, when you start talking about it and start really getting into it, people get quite involved. And the thing that's really silly and it doesn't make sense really in my head, but it works, is as soon as you put make a buyer persona and you give them a name, people go, oh, so we're targeting that at Jimmy. And it's like, oh, right. And they start, it starts to take shape as a sort of, you know, this imaginary person. And it sounds completely nuts, but, um, once you put a name on this buyer persona, you can actually think, right, what the thing I'm writing or the thing I'm creating is for Jimmy. So you, you, you know what Jimmy does and you know what he's like and how much, how many family he's got and what he does on the weekends. And so then you start making it much more specific so that when Jimmy reads it or somebody like Jimmy reads it, they go, oh, yeah, that's talking to me. So it does make sense, even though it sounds a bit bonkers.

I remember getting like pushback from, um, a client customer, long term customer. Um, this is going back a while, and I may have told this little story before, but we, we were speaking to them about, about marketing and we, we, we, we were covering off the subject of who your ideal customers. And it got that almost flippant response. Everybody, everyone, everyone buys this particular product. And within five minutes we'd got to the point where actually it's men between the ages of thirty five and fifty who work in the oil industry. And, and, and, and, and, you know, within five minutes, they were kind of they'd given us and told us that their ideal customers weren't everybody. And just about every person who bought this particular product fell into a very specific category.

Yeah. And I think I've given this example before, but, um, you think about Diet Coke when it launched and people who are actual like younger than us probably won't even remember this.

You're talking about the Diet Coke.

I am talking about Diet Coke break. It obviously made a big impression on me. But, you know.

Wonder why.

It's a fizzy drink with sweeteners instead of sugar. That's it. So it's not, you know, it's not makeup. It's disgusting. Yeah. It's disgusting, but that's not the point. It was marketed really cleverly because they went, right. We've invented this new fizzy drink with sweeteners instead of sugar in um, anyone could drink it, but they narrowed down their market. So they made it aimed at, you know, younger women. So they had this Diet Coke break where basically people were working in office and this like really sexy window cleaner appeared and took his top off and, you know, that sort of thing. So, you know, it was really clever, clever advertising and it made it really, really clear who they were targeting this product at. Now, yeah, they and people go, well, but if we point if we aim at that segment, we're ruling out all these other people. So I mean, Diet Coke basically did rule out blokes. You know, it's not that many blokes would be seen dead drinking a Diet Coke because it was so obviously aimed at women, but they knew that was their market and they went absolutely hell for leather at that market. And they didn't mind excluding the other ones because they understood the main audience for their product. Pepsi Max then went in and took the male market, basically.

Yeah. That's right.

Um, because Pepsi Max obviously looked and went, well, there's no point going for that female market Diet Coke.

Which is also disgusting.

We'll go, oh, it's also disgusting. It's the same stuff basically. But um, yeah, that's not the point. We're not we're not discussing whether Diet Coke and Pepsi Max are nice or not. We're discussing that they actually did very.

I will say that I like Pepsi and I like Coca Cola, but I.

Cannot.

Abide the the low fat versions because they're disgusting.

They don't have fat and it's low sugar alternatives.

They are horrible.

Um, I don't like them at all. I don't even like the full fat versions.

But but to your point is the main reason that people don't engage with this process of figuring out who their ideal customers are is the main reason down to the fact that they're frightened of missing opportunities or believe by narrowing it down, they're going to miss opportunities.

Yeah. They think that if they narrow it down to certain people, they'll rule out other people. But if you make it so general that it's aimed at everybody, it's actually aimed at nobody because it's not going to resonate with anybody. So what you can do is you can pick a couple of buyer personas, you can pick lots of them, but you target them all differently. So you could, you know, you could have the same sugary sweet stuff because I think Diet Coke did bring out another one that was kind of more blokey. Um, did.

They? Yeah, I'm thinking of the zero. Pepsi zero wasn't nothing.

Whatever. I think there's a Coke Zero, which I think is probably pretty much the same thing.

But yeah.

Um, so, you know, you can, you can do product variance and aim them at different markets or you can, you know, you can still talk to different audiences in different ways for the same product or service, but it's, it's making sure that your messaging and your imagery and everything else is speaking really precisely to one group of people, because then they're going to notice it and they're actually going to pay attention. If it's very generic and bland and aimed at everybody, then actually nobody is going to like pick up on it and go, oh, wow, that's me, you know? And the things that you remember are things you relate to. You go, oh yeah, I feel like that. Or that's happened to me or yeah, that's a problem I'm having. Whereas if it's so general, nobody's going to feel like that about it.

If you think about our own experiences, because we're not, um, we're not exempt from needing to understand who our ideal customers. Yeah. And we do to, to a great extent, we understand who our ideal customers are. And if you think back to maybe four or five years ago, five, maybe four or five years ago, we used to get a lot more traffic to our website. We'd maybe get, I don't know, five hundred visitors a day or whatever it was, which is a lot more than we're getting now. But we were attracting completely, for the most part, completely the wrong visitors.

Which was wasting a lot of time in terms of answering enquiries and doing proposals and speaking to people who were absolutely not the right audience. Even starting work for people who weren't the right audience. And then.

As a result of that.

Figuring it out that that it really wasn't going to work.

So, so what we did is we, we focused in and we're continuing to do this. We're focusing in by establishing who we now understand are our ideal customers. And pretty much, yeah, pretty much every enquiry we get now has the potential. They don't all turn into customers, obviously, but they have the potential. We very rarely now get an enquiry that is just way off the mark.

Very, very few. Yeah. I mean, it used to be constant, but no, it's much, much, much better. So yeah.

So so by, I guess by, by putting some energy into understanding your ideal customers. That's a really powerful business growth strategy.

It is because because you're actually attracting the yeah, the people you want to attract and you're not attracting the people that are, you know, the tire kickers who are just going to waste your time and you can get very distracted by fending off or, you know, the wrong kind of enquiries or even dealing with the wrong kind of customers because it's really hard to say no when somebody's going, but I've got a little bit of money to spend with you. You know, it's hard to turn people away, but if they don't come in in the first place, because they're they're being turned away by the messaging and the way you present yourself, then you haven't got that issue. And then you're, you're much more likely to attract the people that that are the people you want to do business with.

So how much detail should we be going into when we start to develop? You mentioned before that you're giving them a name.

Yeah.

It's quite good fun. What shall we call this persona? That's a fun exercise. How much? I mean, what might a typical persona look like.

Persona sort of cheats that we run through with. People are about three pages long. So yeah, you've got the demographic stuff, you've got their education, you've got their background, what they do in their spare time, and then you've got what they do.

So why does that matter? I mean, I'm not I'm not playing devil's advocate. I'm just we're just chewing the fat. So why does it matter that we understand what somebody who might buy digital marketing services from us? Why does it matter that we understand what they do in their spare time? Flesh that out for me.

Because we know, you know, what sort of person they are, you know where their head's at. You know, you know what language to speak to them in. You know what imagery to use. You know, if it's a guy that goes cycling at the weekends and Lycra, then maybe, maybe you want to include that sort of somewhere just so that they get the, the impression that that you know them. Um, and also like, then when you actually start having conversations with them, you get to know them and you can understand where they're coming from. There's just the more information you have, the better you. You understand them. Um, it just affects the language you use and the way you present.

I guess I guess as well, and I've mentioned it already by understanding, by understanding who they are, what they do, you know, out, out with the work, um, context outside the context of work, um, just understanding like the social media platforms that they might use, for example, does that helpful, like I guess it.

Yeah, it's just, it just makes it more rounded. It's just that you've got this picture you of, of an actual person. So it's not just like we're targeting, you know, project engineers. Yeah, it makes it a real person.

Yeah. So I think what some, what people often miss in the B2B space, business to business is it's still people to people.

Totally. And people still the initial impact of anything that someone looks at is not based on logic. It's the the first time they see you, it's a sort of emotion impact sort of more, um, I can't think of the word, but more a more emotional sort of reaction to begin with. Then they'll dig in and go, okay, I like the look of these guys. So do they tick all the boxes and then I'll have a conversation with you and it'll come very much back to, you know, can I, can I work with these guys? There's a chemistry there which is back to sort of being a more emotional reaction. So just because it's business to business doesn't mean it's all logic at all. It's still people.

Yeah. And, and I was in a meeting earlier this week with a potential customer in, um, an engineering company, and they said that a lot of people that visit our website need, um, technical data sheets. They need that technical information. It's why they come to the website. It's, you know, that's what they're looking for in order to establish whether or not they can, they want to do business with us, whether we've got the products or services that they're looking for. So that's one buyer persona that they need to cater for.

Yeah.

But at the same time, it could be that you've got somebody in the, um, the buying department, you know, who needs to go out and find a potential supplier who would look at a data sheet, and it might as well be written in a foreign language because they.

Wouldn't.

Understand it. So that's another persona. But you know, the same website. So generally speaking, what I'm trying to drive at is, is how many personas do you create for? I guess it's no typical answer to that. Some businesses might have many personas.

But in big companies, business to business, you're right. You know, you've got your you've got your person who kind of is, is having the problem and is reaching out and trying to find a solution. You've got your procurement people, you've got your finance people or your board who probably involved in the decision, and then you've got the person who's reached out, you've got their boss who probably actually makes the decision. So for that one purchase, there's probably at least four buyer personas. And you need to be slightly sort of giving different information to, to each one of them because they've got different priorities. So you need to understand that.

I think the aspect of creating buyer personas that the majority of people understand first, if they're, if they're maybe pushed back a bit. Oh, everyone's a customer. I don't want to do this. Um, I think the bit that they understand the most and is the best way to communicate the idea of developing personas for ideal customers is when it comes down to, to me, the very essence of digital marketing, inbound marketing, search engine optimisation is understanding the problems that your customers are trying to solve. Yeah. And that's, you know, people miss that by a country mile. Still their website, their marketing. You know, it's we, this we that we do this we that we, we we us. We're great. Instead of like we understand, show people you understand the pain that they're feeling that you can solve. And you're going to be, you know, you're going to be in such a strong position. That's, that comes down to buyer personas.

Totally. I mean, it kind of comes back to what you were saying before, um, about, you know, why do you need to know what they want to do in their spare time and things? You know, you, you can put messaging out there saying like, you know, let us help you with such and such so you can spend more time on the golf course. So if you know that a lot of your, that's the type of audience you've got, then you know that messaging is going to work. Whereas if, if you're talking to sort of, you know, twenty five year old women, that's probably not a message that's going to work, you know, very generalising, but, um, that it helps you with, with that sort of idea. And, you know, their problem is that they want to spend more time on the golf course and they get stuck at work, or they have to work weekends because everything's in a mess or something like that. So yeah, totally understanding fire is there. They're looking. And you know, what questions they're trying to get answered is really, really important.

Okay. So if you start by, you know, if we were working with somebody, if we started by saying, right, thinking about all of the projects that you're working with, thinking about all of the customers, all of your customers right now, tell us about either a fictitious or if this person really exists. Tell us about a fantastic piece of business that you did recently or tell us about. In an ideal world, I could do it for us. You know, for us it would be, for example, um, the chief marketing officer of a chunky company, a large company turning over fifty, sixty, seventy million is under-resourced in-house and needs the help of an agency to look at their position in the market and look at what they're currently doing and help that person and him or her figure out the right course of action and then execute that. I mean, to us, that's, that's, that's a great personality. And at the opposite end of the scale for us would be, um, an organisation who or a company, a one man, a one person band, a one person company that's basically at the start of their journey and they haven't got any money at all. You know, we'd love to help them, but like, we're a business, we need to pay the rent.

Yeah. Basically.

Yeah. Sort of thing. So, you know, he's teasing out that that fantastic customer they've already got or just say, look, fantasise and tell us about, you know, this perfect customer and everything you can think of about them and what they bought from you and why they bought it and, and why they're such a fantastic customer.

Yeah. That's right. It's, it's going through that and, and just getting them to, to sort of get really involved in sort of describing that person.

So when it comes to getting inspiration for places where you will get good, solid information to help you with this. What can sometimes feel like a bit of a pain in the ass kind of exercise? Then maybe your existing customers. Because not only will you find those fantastic customers, you will also find those customers that turned out to be a pain in the backside and and why they became a pain in the pain in the backside. So by flipping that on its head, you can figure out who's going to be an ideal customer.

Yeah. I mean, I think if people look, look at their existing kind of customer database and, um, and sort of go through and go, right, look, these, these and these maybe sort of, if you combine that person with that person, it would be an ideal person. So you look at who you're already dealing with and then, you know, you can look in LinkedIn and look at sort of job titles and what people's backgrounds are to get a feel for sort of what sort of person, you know, if you find the sort of job title of the person that you might want to target, you can look at LinkedIn and look at people who have that job title and sort of see, you know, where they're going, where they've been, that sort of thing and what they're interested in. So you can get a lot of lot of information online. And just to get a feel for what those people are like.

Yeah, there's lots of templates for, for developing buyer personas. And maybe if anyone's interested, you know, get in touch, we can, we can share with you a template that will help you when you're developing buyer personas, but with, with my devil devil's advocate hat on yet again. Um, isn't it possible that you could go through the exercise of analysing your, your best ten customers for a particular product or service and get to the point where like these people have got nothing in common. They're not the same age, they're not the same background, they're not the same sex. They don't hang out in the same places. Yet they all bought this product from us. So what the hell is that telling us.

That there will be something in common. You just have to look a bit further beyond.

Just maybe, the problem that they wanted to solve. Which is at the heart of it, surely?

Yes. Yeah. There'll be, there'll be something, there'll be something that means that they're all having the same problem and you will find something in common.

Okay.

You will. I promise.

Yeah. So if you think about us without naming names, obviously, if we think about some of our current customers that we're working with on, on retainer, um, probably fair to say that maybe some of them are not as good a fit now as they used to be, because as an organisation, we've evolved, we've evolved. So personas, I mean, and we're still, we still love them and we still want to have them as customers. Um, because we just like having these long term relationships and looking after.

Yeah, we do a great job that way.

If they, if some of our customers who are now who currently work with us came along right now, they would not be we would we would politely decline.

We wouldn't take them on. We might not.

So what I'm driving at is like most things with business, customer personas is something that needs to be constantly reviewed.

I imagine you should be visiting your marketing strategy and your your plans. You know, really pretty regularly and your, your ideal customers and your personas are kind of part of your marketing strategy. So yeah, as part of that, you should be revisiting them because it is going to change over time. I mean, some businesses completely change what products and services they provide. So obviously their personas are going to change alongside that. So yeah, I mean, like, like everything you do, you should be reviewing it. It's, it's not going to stay the same.

I remember, um, I think it might have been Cliff, uh, who was, who was my boss when I was at fifth ring back in the day. Um, he said something along the lines of, um, you know, you answer the phone, you say hello. Yes. Yeah. No, no, we don't do that. There's, we don't do it because there's no demand for it. You're the tenth person today. I've told this.

To.

You know, it's kind of like, is it is there a possibility that people, you know, like to keep healthy? You should people say, listen to your body. If you've got aches and pains, figure out what's going on, listen to what your body's trying to tell you. You know, your business this data. We just did a really good exercise with a new customer, didn't we, where we dug into their existing data in HubSpot and found some incredible insights, which blew them away. The date was right under their nose, but they hadn't. They hadn't found it. That it's it's possible, surely that that, that businesses are, are not looking at who's buying.

Totally.

You know, in order to just get that penny drop moments like, wait a minute, you know, the last ten times we've sold this, it's been it's been exactly the same job description. It's been exactly the same type of.

Person, actually, who we think is our ideal customer. Maybe it isn't. You can get it wrong. I mean, and there's no harm in, you know, you should be reviewing it and you should be checking it out and, and looking at the data that, you know, the data is, isn't going to lie to you. So, um, yeah, you might want, need to add another persona. It's like, okay, yeah, yeah, we still absolutely target these people, but actually there's an audience that we hadn't thought of. And yeah, they're, they're going to be great. You know, let's actually, you know, create some content and make sure that we've got, um, got information for that group of people because, you know, we missed that. And um, they're another one that we want to add to our list.

So this, this whole idea of understanding personas, it also feeds into your, um, your positioning strategy.

Yeah. I mean, where, where you want the market to perceive you, how you want the market to perceive you. Do you want, do you want people to think you're kind of top end and expensive? Or do you want to think they're sort of think they, they want to think of you as cheap and cheerful or whatever it is. So yeah. And, and that can change as well. You know, you can start off being a sort of bargain basement company and then go, actually, you know what? That that's not where we want to be seen anymore. So you, you make efforts to change the way that, that people perceive you.

Yeah. So if you're trying to grow your business, then developing personas is, is, is a key aspect because, you know, let's say let's take us as an example. We, we want customers, we want companies, uh, who will pay a certain level of monthly retainer. Yeah. You know, that's, that's, we want that because it's going to allow us to do more and more great work. It's going to allow us to grow as an organisation both financially and in other ways. If we don't understand our ideal customers, we're never going to achieve our business goals. Because when somebody comes along and they've got thirty bob to spend on a website, we might go, oh yeah, yeah, we do websites. Yeah. Okay, then. Fair enough. We'll figure that out. Whereas we, we absolutely understand that we are not the best people to do that. They are not the right persona. They are not looking for what we, we actually really sell. So developing these personas really helps you as an organisation, understand who you really are and, and where you're trying to get to and how you're going to get there? It's not it's not just some kind of airy fairy marketing exercise. It really.

Isn't. It it nails it down. Um, you know, if you're going to grow, you're either going to grow by introducing new products or reaching new markets basically. Um, you know, there, there are, that's the two main ways. If you're not going to be actually introducing new services for your existing customers, then you need to be looking for new customers for your existing services. Mhm.

Okay. All right. So to sort of start to wrap this up then, um, creating buyer personas is on the, from, on the outside looking in, it feels like a waste of time. And it absolutely isn't. If you're serious about growing your business, you must understand not only who you want to sell your products and services to, but who will be the right people to sell those products and services to. If you want your business to grow. If you want to thrive?

Yeah. To say to maybe put another slant on it. Um, if you want to target everybody, you're going to need a massive budget. Now, on the basis that there are, you know, nobody's got a bottomless pit of money to dig into in terms of marketing budget. Narrow it down to the people that are actually going to be profitable.

Yeah, yeah. It took us a long time to learn that lesson, didn't it?

Yeah. It takes a lot of people a long time to learn that. And to start with, you don't necessarily know which people are going to be profitable, but, um, you know, if you, if you focus on speaking to the people that are actually going to help you achieve your business objectives, then you don't need to speak to the rest of them.

Yeah. Because, you know, an enquiry comes in. Yeah. We're all excited because I've been playing around with Zapier. Now the whole team finds out when an enquiry comes in because it goes into our Slack channel, because I'm now a no code genius. Thanks, Phil. Um, you know, because that you get excited. I think any business you get excited when you get an enquiry.

An enquiry, you're like, oh, we got an enquiry.

But if you quickly establish like, which persona is this person? Actually they don't. We've got six or whatever, five personas there, none of those personas. So two things either they are a good prospect and they are a persona we hadn't even thought of. And so great, let's develop that. Or they're not the right person. And we really shouldn't be.

We're probably not right, right agency for you. And, um, we will point you in the right direction of someone else.

Yeah. Okay. That's fine. Um, I can't believe how long we've spoken about you.

I don't think we can speak further.

I just thought that's going to take five minutes. But anyway, it's taken longer. It's. Yeah. And I always learn something when I'm, when I'm doing these things. And it's been, it's been it's kind of it's, it's helped me think in even even more about the importance of getting this stuff right. It, it kind of just makes so much sense.

Plan. You have to start with who it's for. You can't do a marketing plan without it. Seriously?

Yeah. I mean, obviously, we've spoken in the past about marketing departments that look at the world and say, what is there a demand for? Yeah, you kind of reverse engineering that. You know, we, we set up a business doing this stuff that we love doing. Um, but at the same time, you can do this in reverse. I always think that's what entrepreneurs do because people, you know, over the years, people say, oh, you're very entrepreneurial. You know, Dave and I don't see myself as an entrepreneur. I don't I think an entrepreneur is a person that sees opportunities and responds to them.

Well, look, there's yeah, there's a market there and nobody's doing it. I'll set up a business.

Whereas I'm a guy who started a business based around a skill set I had, which is not the same.

No it's not. No, it really isn't.

I agree, I agree with me.

Yeah. No, I think you're right. I agree with you as well.

Okay. Right. Okay, enough of this. Uh, if there's anything around this subject or indeed any subject.

Speak to me. I love talking about this sort of stuff, so please speak to me about it?

Speak to speak to Julie. Um, but if there's any other aspect of digital marketing you want us to cover, you want to come on and talk about some aspect of digital marketing or your digital marketing journey or business growth journey. Uh, we'd love to have you coming on. We have got, I think we've only got one guest scheduled in over the next few weeks, I think. So it's going to be more of you, me, Alex and the gang.

So if you want to save our audience from that, please come on and speak to us.

Absolutely. Uh, in the meantime, if you want to get in touch, you can go to redevolution.com or redevolution.com/digital-marketing-from-the-coalface. See, I'm giving people a choice.

It's too difficult.

It's ridiculous.

Get in touch with us. Find us.

Just find.

Us.

Just get in touch with us. Um, and in the meantime, we look forward to producing another show next week about something that we think about two minutes before we start recording.

Don't tell them.

Oh, no, I didn't mean to say that. We'll edit that bit out. Um, in the meantime, thanks and cheerio.

Bye.