Inbound Marketing Explained With Examples – Episode 78

Was that inbound marketing?

Yeah, it was completely because they were looking for a HubSpot agency. They went online, they found our website. They read the content on our website. It impressed them enough to make them pick up the phone. And then they spoke to us and we gave them more information. And then we kind of reassured them that we could do the things we said we could do by conversation. And then they went, yeah, we're like, oh.

Well. And also, you know, we've spent the last, what, like six months producing HubSpot content pretty much non-stop for our blog and updating stuff on our website. And like we were looking at a day at our HubSpot rankings and they have been going up and up and up because we've been investing the time and the effort.

Means we get found by people who are looking for HubSpot agencies.

Yeah. Welcome back to Digital Marketing From The Coalface with Alex, Julie.

Hello.

And me. Um, fresh from my exciting stint as a guest on the BBN mixtape podcast.

Was it nice to be.

I was. I was fantastic.

Was it nice to be answering questions rather than asking them?

It's all right. Yeah. I quite enjoyed it. It was okay. It's different because obviously, you know, we put so much preparation into these podcasts because, because we like to make sure that we've got all these questions we're going to ask and everything. And it's not at all just a bunch of us having a chat around the table after having a bacon sandwich on a Friday morning. No, definitely.

Isn't that definitely isn't that couldn't be.

Um, okay, so today's subject is it's kind of a roundup. I think the last podcast was a little bit ranty, which is fine from time to time. So we're sure we can do what we want, can't we?

Well, until people stop listening.

Yeah, well they've stopped, they've stopped. So, you know, sometimes we get a bit ranty and sometimes it's just a general kind of chat. This I think this is a bit of a regroup podcast just to kind of remind everybody what inbound marketing is. So we'll go around the table starting with Julie and. Get kind of just your own very loose. I don't need to say that very loose, um, version of what inbound marketing is.

Yeah, I think it's, I sometimes think that people don't really understand the difference between digital marketing and inbound marketing. And I think that digital marketing is any marketing you do that's online, whereas inbound marketing is more of a kind of planned out process for getting people to kind of hear about you and then kind of contact you, and then you can follow them up and kind of gradually sort of suck them into becoming a customer. So I would say it's a marketing process.

Okay. None the wiser, Alex.

If you can do anything.

Well, I've got the HubSpot definition open here.

Give us the HubSpot.

Definition for that one. I was waiting for that.

Give us that and then give us yours.

Inbound marketing is a business methodology that attracts customers by creating valuable content and experience that's tailored to them, which is a very waffly way of saying, I think personally that instead of interrupting somebody and saying, you know, here, look at me. It's about creating stuff that's designed to attract attention by giving people useful information, answering questions.

And I think it then pulls them down the process. So by giving them more and more content, you're then pulling them towards you as a chosen supplier when they're, when they're ready to make that purchase and accepting that not everyone is ready to make a purchase at the point where they first see you.

Okay. I'm eight.

Yes.

Alex. Hello, Alex.

That's weird. What?

Me voice hasn't broken yet. Please explain to me what inbound marketing is, because my teachers asked me to do it for my homework.

Uh, it's for an eight year old. Uh.

Go on. Try.

It's marketing. That is.

What's marketing?

Julie.

You try.

Hello, Julie. Please explain inbound marketing to me.

It's about trying to get new customers for your company. But to begin with, you.

What's a customer?

A customer is somebody who buys something from you.

Go back to school. Your teacher can explain this.

Get a grip, child. Um. And you want to make them know about your company so that when they do want to buy something, they choose you.

Okay.

Why am I doing that voice? You're not really.

We can spin it. People. People go online to answer questions. Inbound marketing is about answering those questions.

People go online to answer questions.

Ask questions, don't you? Stop it. You know a lot. You're a precocious eight year old.

This has gone downhill really, really quickly this week.

Bit chaotic, isn't it? Yeah. So let's just as a group, let's try and explain it to an eight year old.

I mean, this maybe this exposes one of the fundamental flaws with this particular buzzword. Actually, it is quite difficult to explain.

Not many people seem to use it. It's getting increasingly used in the UK. It's commonly used in the US, but it's still not used. Less people use digital marketing more.

But there is a difference.

It really bugs me that the two have, like you were saying, become kind of synonymous, right? Because I think the thing that's interesting, I think it is HubSpot that pioneered this idea, the inbound marketing.

Buzzword, the phrase.

But I think there is something really interesting about the kind of root of it, which is that, yeah, like instead of going out and banging on doors and being like, oh, look at me, look at me, look at me, you wait until people are actually asking something and then you kind of, you know, draw them in and tell them, you know, we're the brand that can answer that question. I think that's really cool. But I do think it's becoming kind of eclipsed by this confusion around it.

Sometimes it's easier to start by saying what outbound marketing is. So you can explain that inbound marketing isn't.

The polar opposite of.

Outbound marketing is.

I never asked you to talk about outbound marketing. I'm in charge here.

You are eight a minute ago.

Yeah, you're eight, so you don't get to speak. Children should be seen and not.

Heard.

So you don't get to speak at all.

Okay. Explain outbound marketing in very simple terms.

Brand marketing is interrupting people when they're not looking for you. So things like TV advertising, press advertising, you're reading a magazine, and the ads are the things that kind of get in the way.

Of Facebook ads, I think, fall into this bucket too, don't they, where you're like, you know.

Sports do well. They're supposed to be contextual.

They are contextual, but you're not you're not looking for that thing at the time. It's a thing that might ideally, if the targeting is right, it's a thing that you would be interested in, but you're not actively looking for it at that time, but it's probably relevant to you. So it's.

Right. So without brand marketing, you're paying to try and get somebody's attention with inbound marketing, you have to earn that attention.

Yeah. It's like ringing somebody up in the middle of their dinner, you know, they're, you're interrupting them and grabbing their attention when they're, they're not expecting it. Yeah. An inbound marketing, they are looking for something.

Common examples for us. How do people outbound to us here at Red evolution?

Well, we get bombarded with emails every day don't we. Offering services, phone calls.

Yeah, that's the worst.

The phone call when you're in the middle of something and.

You're always in the middle of something.

Well.

Yeah.

Yeah, usually in the middle of doing nothing, you're still in the middle of it.

I think this is like fundamentally the idea though, isn't it? I mean, this is why inbound marketing became so popular as a buzzword, took off so quickly because people are rightly very annoyed by a lot of traditional kind of outbound marketing stuff. Yeah, it is annoying if you're not in the mood to buy something. Like if we're not looking for cheap links from Indian websites, when we get a phone call offering us exactly that, it's like, well, this is just irritating.

It doesn't work. Are you looking for cheap websites?

So I think at the heart of inbound marketing, we have the word need. So we all use the internet. Nearly everybody uses the internet. Um, and when we do, we often we could be. For example, I might go on to AutoTrader because I'm just interested in what's for sale locally. Just one second.

One second. Doesn't involve cars.

No.

So I do. I regularly go onto AutoTrader, their website. Sometimes they ask if I've got my phone in my hand and I just have a browse around because I'm interested in like, who locally is selling a car and what cars are for sale? I don't really intend to buy. Window shopping. Yeah. Window shopping. It's it's it's amusing. It amuses me. Um, just summoning my inner, uh, Goodfellas there. Um, but quite often people go online because they have a need and where do they go if they have that need? Well, Google, TikTok, YouTube, etc. let's just pick out Google for now. So I have a need I go into Google and I type something in to try and find a solution and answer something that's gonna sort of solve that need that I've got. And when you do inbound marketing, what you're really trying to do is make sure when people have those needs and go and type things into search engines that they find you. Yeah, simple as that, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yes it is. And, but also, if they're beginning to think about the need, but they're not ready to actually purchase the thing yet, they find you and you have some way of kind of keeping in touch with them so that when they are ready to buy, they go, oh, those guys, they were helpful.

I get it. I think that's, I think that's the horseshit side of marketing, if I'm honest. I think this whole idea of, you know, we've been through this buyer journey, etc., you know, most people, when they reach out to you, they've kind of almost completed the journey, aren't they? So at that stage, they've kind of gone through a process of finding, stuff out. So you have to provide content when they're at that stage.

That's that's what I.

Mean by that stage. It's it's so complicated. I think it's mostly guesswork.

I mean, the journey isn't obviously the straight line that people say it is. The journey is.

Squiggly.

And wibbly.

Yeah. All different models of how that journey works.

If you are really, really useful and helpful when somebody's doing their research in the first place, they're much more likely to come back to you when they come to buy you. And that's, that's what the whole content marketing thing.

If that were the case, we would sell way more SEO, SEO services, retainers than we do.

Well, because people come to us when they're looking for what is SEO, for example? Yeah. You mean and then and.

That rarely leads to a piece of work for us.

Yeah.

But this is the complicated.

That's the bit when I that's what I'm calling horseshit on this idea that if you produce great content, which you kind of need to do to be found at all. Yeah. But the idea that that commonly leads to gigs, I'm not entirely convinced.

And if you're looking for what is SEO, you're probably not actually looking to buy it. You're just going, what is that thing everyone's talking about?

Because why should.

We.

Bother putting something up there? You know, why should we bother spending our time putting something up there if people are not going to buy anything from us?

Well, we.

Should be a devil's advocate here.

Well, no, I think it's. Yeah. I mean, when do you not. I mean but no, I mean so that's a really good example. And then, you know, in the interest of giving actionable advice, which is ultimately what this podcast is about, the point is in that example where we're selling SEO services, but producing content for a keyword like what is SEO? And then saying, oh, look, nobody's buying our SEO services. I mean, that is just like, there's no intent. We've talked about intent before in that keyword. Somebody googling, what is SEO services? They could be the eight year old kid you were pretending to be earlier. They could be a university student. Yeah, there could be a teacher.

They know a lot of universities do use that. What is SEO? Whereas if you had how to do SEO, well, yeah. Might be somebody who's trying to do it and trying to figure out how to do it and then may go, you know what? This is way too hard to ask somebody for help. So that has slightly more intent, I think.

Yeah, there's a cost to producing this content for inbound marketing. There's a cost to doing inbound marketing. So you have to be very careful with it. And I think, you know, going back to the car analogy earlier, if you were say, say you were like a, you're shopping around for an Aston Martin, right? And you were a reseller of Aston Martins. You could waste your time going after like, should I buy an Aston Martin and producing content for that or Aston Martin versus Porsche? Or you could spend your time doing stuff like when somebody decided they want an Aston Martin and they're trying to choose which Aston Martin. You put together a buying guide that helps them pick. And then then you're being useful and helpful, but you're also not wasting your time with all the people who don't actually want to buy something.

The question is, can you be found in Google for the commercial intent search words? If you're not being found in Google for the informational helpful content search words.

Yeah.

In which case, it's, it's, that's where it's a process. You sort of you want to be found for the, the selling ones. So you need to have the, the informational ones.

Okay. Before we move into too much detail, here's a conundrum for you. I'd be interested to see if you've got any answers for this. I've just turned the internet off. Right. It's gone. How does how does inbound marketing work now?

Um, but I did a blog post on this and I like people like.

I don't know, did you?

Yeah, yeah. You liked it.

You like we like we ever read your blog?

Yeah, I know Alex did read this one. Um, things like the old fashioned. If you were selling flour, you would like save up the vouchers and send up, up and off for the recipe book. And then you would get the recipe book through the post and it would all these recipes that would make you buy more flour because you wanted to make the cakes. That's something like.

The recipe book, the famous.

Recipe that was that's the example I gave in the blog post that you clearly read because.

Does ring a bell.

Rubbish.

You're a bad.

Liar. I think I had one of my people read it for me. Then tell me, tell me what it was about.

Yeah yeah yeah.

Um, so things like that, things like supermarket Tesco's do a magazine which has. Yeah.

That's a good example actually useful information.

Some of it's nothing to do with the product, something some of it's related to the products. And some of it is like, here's our new, you know, cushions for the autumn or whatever.

So, so it seems to me without the internet.

Content.

You have to do outbound in order to be inbound.

No, you.

Don't have to interrupt people and send them shit. They didn't ask you to send them.

No, no. Like the flower you people send off for the thing, they go, oh, I want lots of.

How did you get in front of them in the first place?

Because they bought the flower.

Okay.

They saw it on the shelf.

So if they're already buying the flower, you just.

Want them to buy.

More of it. That's not really inbound marketing, is it?

Oh it is.

It's.

Content. It's the same idea. Um.

Okay.

Getting found.

It's how else then how else can inbound marketing work in a, in a world? The reason I ask this question is, you know, it's almost like the late, great Eric Ward, who was a link building expert, used to talk about link building in terms of would I want this link From that website to a page on my website. If the internet. Sorry if Google didn't exist as in the link had no value other than it was going to send me traffic. And he used that as a kind of very, you know, a very meaningful metric to try and understand whether the link was worth acquiring or not. We won't bore people with link building just now. We maybe talk about that later. The whole idea of getting links as votes of confidence about your content helps you rank better, as most people know. Um, but where inbounds concerned, is it purely an invention of the twenty first century? Because we have this way of getting in front of strangers?

No, I don't think so necessarily. I mean, I think brands producing useful resources is, is a tale as old as time, isn't it? I mean, people do put out publications. They put out all kinds of stuff.

That's getting them to buy more stuff from a brand they know about. And I guess for the most part, is it not the case.

Discovering new brands?

Yeah, for the most part, the work we do is about putting is about attracting new customers for our clients.

People have not heard of you before.

To be fair though, being able to produce content.

So the question sorry, the question is, was it were we able to do that before Google?

Well, no. Because realistically, like what is the old fashioned equivalent of Google, an encyclopedia and you can't go and insert an entry in an encyclopedia, can you?

Because are we saying every other form of making people aware of you has to, by definition, be outbound?

Yellow pages, yellow pages was kind of not outbound.

Well, yeah.

Yeah. People went and looked.

So directories in general.

Yeah. People went and looked up a directory. I suppose you would go to the library. You'd look up one of those directories to find a list of companies or whatever you would look.

Where might you and I, Julie not Alex. Where might you and I have gone to look for a cheap holiday before Tintin?

It go to your travel agent.

From your own home, from your settee.

But teletext thing. Yeah, So was.

That what sort of marketing was that? Was that outbound?

That was like, that was like very early internet, wasn't it? You were doing a search for for something.

That people would go to teletext in order to find a cheap holiday. So you made sure you were there. Yes. And I guess you paid to be on page one or page.

Because.

It wasn't page system again, like Google.

So yeah, I mean, that was, I guess that was very, very early internet equivalent. And France had a thing called Minitel, which was the same sort of idea that you had, but people advertised on the like Metro for their Minitel thing. And you went and looked up Minitel to get company details. So again, it was like very early web. Mhm. So but yeah, before that you would look up the yellow pages or you would go, what was the library.

Was Yellow Pages outbound inbound. None of the above.

It doesn't really fit, does it? I mean, it kind of fits, but you can't really.

Well it's outbound always interruption based. Is he always in trying to interrupt people?

I think so, I think so it's always based on that idea. Yeah.

It's putting yourself in front of somebody rather than them coming to find you, isn't it? So Yellow Pages isn't really the trade show thing. I think we've had this argument about trade shows. I think trade shows is is mostly inbound because somebody is going to a trade show to find information and they have the choice of whether they go up to your stall or not and speak to you. Um, so they're coming to you and then you're, you're giving them something useful in return for their data. So you can then bombard them with emails and phone calls when you get back. So I think trade shows are inbound.

There's another aspect to this though, isn't there? Which is that, I mean, I guess the trade show one doesn't fit. But going back to the whole Yellow Pages teletext thing, is that what you can do with those platforms is only when somebody says specifically, I'm looking for a holiday or I need a plumber. Give them your contact information. With inbound marketing, we're talking about, because we have the internet, a process that allows us to not just be like, oh, look, we're here, please ring us, but actually kind of help people and build a relationship with them and offer them useful information. And that that's missing from all those examples, right?

So the thing that often confuses people, um, when we're speaking to them about inbound marketing is this idea of producing useful content. I managed to keep a straight face, as I said that.

Yeah. Useful content. The content we produce is useful. Yeah.

I'm not saying it isn't. Um.

But lots of content out there isn't it?

Yeah. So okay, as like I've been in an eight year old, I'm now being a curmudgeonly fifty eight year old because that's what I am.

Being.

A curmudgeonly fifty eight year old business owner. My business is always done. Okay. Things have started going off a little bit. I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of people advertising and appearing all over some of the web stuff that I look at when I managed to figure out how to switch my computer on, um, because I'm not very IT literate and I'm not very technical, as people like to say. Um, I just want, I just want people to find me when they want to buy, um, this thing that I sell. I'm not, I'm not going to waste my time writing blog posts and whatever the hell useful content is. Alex. Julie well, why should I?

Because that's the way they're going to find you. Ultimately, there is no other way of them finding you.

But I went onto Google and I typed in something and I clicked a thing, and there it was on a page that sold me the thing I wanted to buy.

Heaven will always remember the first time I had this conversation with someone in real life, they were they sold lawn mowers. They sold a lot of lawn mowers, and I tried to explain to them that there was a real benefit to writing a guide on how to make stripes in your lawn, because to make stripes in your lawn. I don't know whether you know much about lawn mowers, but you need a specific type of lawn mower. And they've.

Got.

Chucky's, not a lawn.

Well, that's gravel for people.

Who.

Are from Aberdeen.

I clearly need a guide.

Assuming you want a stripy lawn. Yeah. And I spent about three hours trying to explain to this guy that if people are looking to put stripes in their lawn, and you give them a guide that explains how to put stripes on your lawn. And that says we also sell the lawn mowers that will help you do this. You may generate some customers like, no, people don't care about that. They just want to buy a lawn mower. And I agree with what you were saying earlier, right? There's a lot of kind of drivel and buzz worthiness around this whole kind of idea of buyer journeys and that sort of thing. But we have to accept that there are different stages of a process. People don't wake up one morning and think, right, I need a Honda lawnmower. That's not actually what happens. Somebody's gone through a whole process of like, right, my grass is really long, right? My grass looks shit, my current lawn mower is broken, whatever. And all those stages in that kind of process, they are going to go to the internet for help.

And if I need a new lawn mower, I'll speak to my mate Alan, because he's got a lovely garden and I've seen him mowing his lawn. He knows about. I'm going to ask him and that's what my customers will do. They're not going to they're not going to buy stuff off me because I write some some jargon.

Do you not think.

About the internet as the virtual. Alan. So if they don't know. Alan, Maybe they need an Alan and they haven't got an Alan, so they would go to Google and Google would.

Alan.

Google would be the equivalent of. Alan and it would give them the. That Alan's not just going to go right. This this lawnmowers, this much this lawnmowers this much. Alan's going to go, do you need an electric one or a petrol one? Do you need a big one or a little one. Do you know what do you need to do with it? What do you know? How big is your garden? Do you need a ride? Like Alan's going to do lots of research and give you lots of different options. He's not just going to say, here's a lawnmower at seven hundred quid. You know, he's he's going to he's going to speak to you and he's going to give you lots of different options and advice. So Google is going to be your. Alan.

Right. Okay. So I'm not convinced. Okay, we're going to have to produce all this content and we're going to have to make our website a little bit better. How much? How much is it going to cost me? I mean, are we talking one hundred and fifty quid a month? Are we talking two hundred quid a month? What? What is it going to cost me for you to do this for me?

Thousands of pounds.

A little bit more than that.

Yeah, yeah. I mean it's expensive, right? But you've got to think about this in terms of what is the potential payoff. I mean, say you're running this fictional lawnmower business and you create this, this article. It's not one person that you're putting in front of. It's not one person that you're persuading. It's not one person whose head you're getting into. If thousands and thousands and thousands of people read it over the next decade.

That's the thing. And you have the longevity. If you're putting like at the moment, if you've got a lawnmower business, you must be putting ads in, in gardening magazines, you know, BBC gardens or whatever it is, you're putting an advert in that every month and it's costing you a lot of money and you have to do it every single month. If you nail this piece of content or these pieces of content, educating people about lawn mowers that is there for a decade, whatever, you don't have to do it every month. It will. Once you've done it and you just keep topping up your content. Okay.

So when I create this content, if we keep, if we get this content in there, if I buy into this idea, what are we talking a couple of weeks, a month or so till I'm on page one of Google and the people are finding me and I'm getting a kick back. I'm getting a payback on this investment.

See? And that's a market a year.

Yeah.

You want me to spend thousands of pounds a month and basically not know what's going to happen for at least twelve months?

Yep.

What other.

It's not an easy sell, is it?

It's not an easy sell.

Well, I don't know because there's another way of looking at this. And I think, you know, part of this is because we work in the industry and we're so used to having these conversations and hearing these objections. But there is another way of looking at this. I mean, we talked earlier about without the internet, what does our inbound marketing look like? And we established that realistically, other than maybe directories and maybe teletext, it wasn't really possible. So what we're effectively saying is if you invest a few thousand pounds a month and you're willing to wait a year, you have an opportunity to actually turn people who weren't going to buy from you before into customers that you will not find anywhere else in the world. I mean, really, the actual value of that opportunity to get in front of people and to say, actually, you know, you could do this instead and to educate them and to turn them into kind of advocates for your brand or to make them fall in love with your product. You can't do that any other way. There is no opportunity.

Well, how much does it cost to go to a like Homes and Gardens trade show?

But even then, you're only getting the people who've decided to go to the trade show this way.

Do that over and over again in every single town in the country. So compared to that.

Millions.

Of.

People.

I.

Mean, not that expensive.

To spend a lot of money to. I could just put adverts on the radio.

That's expensive.

It's not that expensive. I've had a quota that I can do an I can run this great advert for a month and it's going to cost me seven hundred quid.

How many people? Well, no, because I can tell you exactly why that's.

Where is.

That?

That's in one town. You're. The internet reaches the whole world.

It's in one town and it only happens.

I don't sell lawnmowers to the whole world. I only sell lawnmowers to people in Aberdeen.

How? How long is that going to be on the radio?

One at a time, guys. Okay.

How long is the advert on the radio? Fifteen seconds.

30s 30s.

And how many people are going to hear it in that 30s. And anybody that turns the radio on three seconds after you've finished.

Role playing, it's almost like he's trying to convince.

Me.

He doesn't realise I'm playing devil's advocate.

You don't want a lot more, do you? You just said you don't have any grass. He doesn't want a lawn mower.

Getting a lawn mower. I mean, you know, you're you're hoping that of the fifteen thousand people that hear your advert in three seconds, it's on that one of them happens to, you know, maybe on a good day, a hundred of them. But you put a piece of content out there and everybody who ever googles that question is going to find your content for years to come. I mean, that's.

People listening to of those people listening to the radio. You might none of them might be wanting a lawn mower. Everybody who who Googles I need a lawn mower is needing a lawn mower.

Everybody that Googles, should I buy a Honda or I don't know any lawn mower manufacturers, but you know.

Yeah, actually actually, um, I've kind of led you down the garden path a little bit, but it's surrounded by a beautiful lawn, by the way. Um, I don't sell lawn mowers. Um, I, the thing I sell, nobody searches for it. You know, people don't go on to Google to buy the thing that I sell.

Okay. We can we'll investigate that.

What is the thing that, you.

Know, I'm not going to tell you what it is I sell. It's just a thing that nobody searches for.

That's very irritating.

I sell, I sell the the special engine mounts that go on to jet engines on Learjets. So nobody goes on Google to search for that. Nobody goes looking for Google on Google for that. So it's a waste of time me doing this.

How do customers find you at the moment?

Well, because like, you know, when these mounts go, they just know who you know, there's no, there's only like ten of us in the world make these things. So.

So you're competing with ten other people. Yeah. And you've got to persuade all the people who could potentially buy these engine mounts off you that you are the person to come to.

And so how do I do that? By writing a blog post about Sally and accounts doing a doing a sponsored walk.

Well probably not.

No, I don't think, you know.

That's not a blog post. That's news item. That's a completely different podcast, don't you?

You'll be setting Julie off trying to distract her. Um. No. I mean, this is the thing, you know, even if you're in a tiny, tiny market where there's only a couple of suppliers and there are only a few people that are going to buy the stuff, people are still weighing you up against somebody else. So it's very rare that we come across a company who has no competition. And whenever you have competition, you have to prove that you are the people to go to. And the best way to do that is by making it clear that, you know absolutely everything there is to know about these Learjet mounts, right?

So taking my devil's advocate hat off, the reason I said that is because we have that conversation a lot. Nobody's nobody goes to Google when they need to buy this thing that we sell.

But they're not. This is the thing, isn't it? They're not going to Google in the moment being like, where do I buy my Learjet mounts? Because they already know there are only three people to buy them from, but prior to that, they are like, why did this Learjet mount that I had before break? You know, was it not the best? Is there a better quality option on the market? Like, is this actually.

Should are they just looking to see if they can get them cheaper? Like who else is out there that I might get a quote from or. Yeah, I.

Mean, and it's a can can we name check industries? Is that okay?

Name checking industries.

Oil and gas. Happens all the time with oil and gas clients, right? They're like, no, it's a really small world. It's really.

Small.

Everyone knows.

Each.

Other. It's like the people at the apex of that market, like the halliburtons and the schlumberger's and stuff. They spend a lot of money producing content for a reason. It's because ultimately, when people are deciding on an oilfield service provider or whatever they are checking, they are qualifying, they are going online and saying like, does somebody have a better solution to this? And if you're not getting in front of them, you just yeah, they're just not gonna.

Think of you. If you've got sales people out there talking, talking to a potential customer, the chances are they're then going to go on the website and dig about a little bit and go, you know, is this sales person, you know, telling me the full story? You know what? Are there any reviews? Are there testimonials? Does it do what they're saying? It does. All that. That's all content. You know, that's all part of inbound marketing because.

People are saying to.

You, people can be just about at the point of buying, and then they kind of get a little bit nervous, and then they just want a little bit of reassurance and backup. They'll go on to the website and look at your reviews and just just make themselves feel really comfortable before they go and spend those millions of pounds on this thing for their Learjet or whatever it is.

Yeah. And this is the thing, isn't it? Like, even if you don't think of digital marketing or inbound marketing, even as a, as a way of generating brand or getting brand new people in to know about your brand. I mean, I've been at trade shows where people have literally gone around on their phone and after talking to somebody at a store, the first thing they've done is like, googled the person and you can be damn sure if they didn't find information on that person's website that backed up everything they've just been saying at the stall. Yeah, they'd probably be like, well, that was a load of horse shit, right? So, you know, even if you're just seeing inbound marketing as a way of kind of qualifying or proving, like you say, what your sales people are saying, people, it's still essential.

Moving people down that process.

It's way cheaper to build a website that is does a fantastic job of converting somebody who knows about you, who met you at a trade show or a referral through a network. Yeah. You don't have to spend a fortune on content to build a website that will do a great job of that. Yeah. Different thing.

Yeah, yeah. It is a different thing because it doesn't need to get found. It just needs to reassure people once they know who you are. But it's all part of the process.

Okay, well, we need to kind of not to, not to draw this to a close quite yet, but to just get a line in the sand because we've just been having a bit of fun and playing around with this idea and putting up objections and things. Real world example. We are currently working with another agency in Edinburgh who needed somebody to partner with to help them deliver some HubSpot services to a customer of theirs.

Yep, yep. Correct.

The conversation with the guy at that agency went something like got in touch, arranged to meet, jumped on a Zoom chat. Yeah, we've been looking around. We've we found you guys. We found a bunch of other guys who, you know, who do you seem to be cropping up a lot when we're searching on HubSpot related stuff, we kind of like some of the things that you're saying. Um, and we thought it was worth to have a com worth having a conversation. That conversation has now turned into a purchase order. Yeah. Was that inbound marketing?

Yeah, it was completely because they were looking for a HubSpot agency. They went online, they found our website. They read the content on our website. It impressed them enough to make them pick up the phone. And then they spoke to us and we gave them more information. And then we kind of reassured them that we could do the things we said we could do by a conversation. And then they went, yeah, we'd like to work with you.

Well, and also, you know, we've spent the last, what, like six months producing HubSpot content pretty much non-stop for our blog and updating the stuff on our website. And like we were looking the other day at HubSpot rankings and they have been going kind of up and up and up because we've been investing the time and the effort, and then.

We get found.

By people who.

Are looking for HubSpot agencies.

Yeah. And another example, um, these are all very simple examples, but we, we've got a customer who, uh, Aston Martin specialists, they restore classics like, um, Sean Connery's DB five, um, and, you know, the classics and they're all so modern and modern. They also service.

Some.

Of the.

Modern modern cars.

As well. Um, and they're very, very much brand focused on Aston Martin, but a conversation with them went something like, yeah, we, we're Aston Martin specialists. We can't afford to water that down. However, one of our guys loves tuning Weber carburettors. Now let's not get into the details of that are in Italian or sometimes Spanish made. I think carburettor the basically a racing carburettor, which is the thing that puts petrol into old fashioned engines so that they run. So it's a, it's a performance piece of kit, and tuning them is a real art form. It's not just a technical. You don't just turn a, turn a knob and tweak another knob and then it's all it runs. It involves drilling holes in the carburettor to make it run properly. It's a proper like you know, they, they do it by, by listening and smelling. I mean it's a, it's a really, really. Yeah. It's a.

Skill. It's a real art.

It's a real art. It really is. And they said to us, you know, we've got this skill and we know that other classic cars.

Use Weber.

Use Weber carburettors. And yeah, we wouldn't mind working on some other cars. Um, and so we said, okay, so we had no content on the website at all that talked about Weber carburettors or their expertise or their willingness, if you like to tune Weber carburettors for non Aston Martins and it's taken a few months. We've written the content, you know, we did the research, written the content, put it out there. They're now getting fairly regularly getting enquiries. In fact they had an enquiry came in and I think it was from a customer who's got it wasn't a particularly expensive classic car. You've got to think like the Aston Martin classics. They cost a fortune. Some of them are like a million quid. It's ridiculous. Well, some of them are ten million quid. If you get into the real sort of sharp end of the market. But this thing is. I can't remember what it was, but it was. It's got three Weber carburettors on it. It's probably something like a straight six. It could be a Triumph Spitfire or something, I don't know. It's something. And I spoke to them and I said, oh I saw that enquiry come in. It was that kind of oh yeah. Brilliant. Love it. You know it's booked in, you know, you know, you can't wait to get his hands on it and get started on it. Was that inbound marketing.

It was indeed.

Okay.

Yeah.

One hundred percent because somebody was looking for somebody to look after this, this Weber carburettor, they looked online, they found it. They probably didn't just go straight to our I'm going to pick up the phone. They saw something useful first.

What I was hoping you would say was we identified an opportunity.

Yeah.

So the guys at the Aston Martin specialist. I find that other people other than classic Astons, use Weber carburettors, and they will probably want them to be sorted out and tuned. So it didn't it didn't start with us producing Weber content. That's that was the next phase. If you talk about this process that, you know, initially it was because because inbound marketing at its very heart is about. I said it earlier. Need. Is there a need for something in the market that we can satisfy.

Should be, shouldn't it shouldn't be about putting products out there and then finding someone to buy them. It should.

Be.

About figuring out what people want and then producing it. I think we've had that conversation before as well. So yeah, absolutely.

There was a need established, and then there was a further piece of research to say, well, you think that people might want this. We then did some research and said, it kind of looks like they do.

People are.

And then you put it into a plan of a put in place, a plan of attack to make sure those people find you when they go searching. And that's now happening. They're now getting getting those enquiries and booking that work in.

I think you're touching on something here that links back to something Julie said at the very beginning of the podcast about this not being random acts of marketing, because I think in the interests of providing people with kind of information they can use to go away and do this themselves. This is one of the key things, isn't it? There has to be. If you're going to do inbound marketing, a proper process in place to identify those problems that people are having and to qualify that and like make because, you know, you said something really interesting there, which is like, we went away and we said, yeah, you're right. You know, there is really a need for this.

Yeah. It might have been that nobody is looking, looking for that at all.

Right. So unless you've got your hands on something that will let you look at search volumes around keywords, that will let you look at trends around keywords and the way people are using Google. You can't do this stuff properly. Um, and then also, I guess the kind of next thing is once you've identified the kind of need and you've qualified it and made sure there are actually people doing it, you then have to have a process in place to go away and create content for it, and to kind of make sure all of that's working. It's not something you can just kind of dabble with, I guess, is.

I guess you said it took a few months and then the enquiry started coming in because that is a pretty niche area. So, um, you know, if it's quite niche and there's not that much content out there, obviously it's going to take effect. This is another than something very competitive.

This is, I think, another critical bit of inbound marketing that people often get wrong, right? Because they like go out there and they're like, oh, I'm an ice cream company. So like people want ice cream. So I'm gonna write content about, you know, picking an ice cream or whatever, and it's going to rank and it'll be fantastic. And I'll have leads in three months. It's like, you've got to spend time making sure that the opportunities you're going after aren't too competitive. You don't want to waste your time going after keywords that you're never going to rank for, and questions you're never going to be able to kind of outdo everybody else and answer.

Questions that, you know, people might be googling ice cream because they want to know how to make it rather than they.

Want to.

Choose a flavor. That's a bit of an odd example, but yeah, it's, it's getting the, the, the keyword that is.

Yeah, gonna actually yield.

It's gonna bring people in, but it's specific enough that you're not going to get people who are looking for something completely different, one hundred percent.

Okay. And the reason I brought up the, um, the agency that we're looking for a HubSpot specialist to partner with. And the reason I brought up the carburettor things is I wanted to make it real. Yeah. Because I think if we, if we tell people these are things that are actually happening.

Then this shit works.

Yeah. That's right. Before we came into this chat, I just heard some cross office talk and I heard Caron say something like, oh, that's, that's three leads for a particular client. Um, this week that have come in. Um, and do you know, do you know about those leads? Do you know anything about them at all?

Well I know who they were for, I don't know whether they're any good. Yeah. Okay.

So basically they are, they, they do um warehouse racking and put in mezzanine floors in warehouses and the like. Yeah. And the work that we've been doing them or doing with them over the last quite a long time.

Yeah.

The last six.

Months.

At least. Yeah. But I mean, when we were.

Working.

With him for two or three years.

I have mainly been for him self storage, and that's an area that they didn't have on their website. And we started building out on the website, and they now actually get quite a lot of enquiries for it.

Yeah. So again, that goes down to recognising a need. Yeah. Not just recognising, not just saying we can do this crap. Let's go and find people who want to buy it. No, it's actually recognising the need. Sometimes that might involve a business adapting the work that we do can help them understand why their business has been in decline, and how to turn that around and, and see the business start to flourish and grow again.

Yep.

Have we got any examples of that? I can't think of any at the top of my head. But that's a thing, isn't it? Because the work that we do, the research, the data driven approach that we take, you know, you might be engaged to do a piece of work and you might come back to the customer and say that this is only ever going to continue to decline because people are not doing this anymore. They're doing that instead.

We've just seen there's loads of people searching for this thing and this thing, you know? Is that something you can do? Um, and I can't think of any examples either, but, you know, we have seen it and you say that, you know, is, is this an area you can, you can deal with because people seem to want it.

Okay. Um, what's the best metric for an inbound marketing campaign?

It has to be leads. I don't think it's customers because inbound marketing really is about getting leads in so that somebody can convert.

Them into.

Customers.

That's on you.

But yeah, it's it's it's decent leads.

Okay.

I see. Yeah. I would say, you know, marketing qualified leads, but does that make sense?

Are you saying that inbound marketing isn't concerned with getting new customers?

It is. But the inbound marketing itself can't turn a enquiry into a customer. That's for the person at the end of the sales process to do.

So is there a way that agencies like us can help people do a better job of converting those leads into customers.

Well, I guess we can do stuff to make sure that the people, the leads that we're generating are from people that are inclined to buy, and then we can do stuff in the content to persuade them to buy.

And I think you can help with the follow up. You know, we can help people follow up these leads. So, um, it may be that the sales team wants some content or they just want to email them some more information in the first place, and then follow up and offer them a demo or offer them a conversation. So, you know, there's follow up to be done. Just because somebody makes an enquiry, you don't just like ignore them. You can, you can follow them up.

So to answer my own question, I think, I think inbound marketing expertise can lend itself to helping sales teams do a more effective job by continuing the process of helping prospects, rather than just phoning them up and asking for a Po.

They call it lead nurturing, don't they? That's the buzzword, I think.

You know, I think part of part, I think one of the most important parts of selling is listening anyway. So if the sales team are like, okay, tell me what you need. And then they might require more content to send out. And these testimonials, case studies, things like that, you know, that's all part of inbound marketing because it's all information that helps move somebody, you know, over the line to actually buy something.

So if leads enquiries is king of all metrics when it comes to inbound marketing, what else can people use?

Well.

Tell me about some of the other metrics.

I'll set off the key buzz of doing this, but clicks, I guess, visits to your website, it's not. Right. So the problem is you don't want to say you should measure the success of an inbound marketing campaign based on whether or not it gets more people on your website, because it's very easy to just kind of get people to go on a website. Very difficult to make sure they're the right kind of people. But I guess in assessing whether or not your kind of process of creating content and getting it to rank and that sort of thing is working, we would look at clicks and we would say.

Visits to a specific page or a specific part of your website, if that's what you're trying to do. If it's a specific campaign, you'd say, well, actually, you know, we increase the number of people visiting this page. Um, so then if they don't visit the page, you've got never got any chance of converting them into an enquiry. So the first part is to get people onto the page. The second part is your conversion rate.

Yeah. There's a bit in the middle as well though, isn't there. I think it's probably an argument to be made for like kind of looking at engagement metrics. How long, if the, if the job here is to take people who are asking a question and answering it, what we want to know is are they actually engaging with what we've written on the page? So looking at things like how long they spend on a page, you know, how far down they scroll, where.

Do they go next? Because that page might just be a, you know, how to, how to do something page. And you think, right, if they really like that, we then want them to go to the yes, I want to buy some of this stuff page. So you might want to see, do people arrive on that page and then go to the other page, or do they just go away and do it themselves?

Okay. Um, I'm, I got me got my hat on again.

How old are you this time?

I'm a very serious business owner. I'm not a child.

But how specifically?

How old specifically? I'm one hundred and six.

All right, well.

You've got a bit of experience behind.

You there, right? So you guys are working for me on an inbound campaign, and I haven't had a single click to my website. Therefore, I haven't had a single enquiry, haven't generated a single lead. Mhm. Show me this is working.

How long has it been running for?

Four months.

You can. Well, one thing we can look at, and we often do look at before clicks comes impressions, right. So when you rank well.

That was the right answer. Apparently.

No it was it wasn't.

The.

Wrong answer. I don't know shout at me for being buzzwordy probably. Yeah.

I mean, I'm.

Trying not to lead the discussion too much. But yes.

That's what he.

Was. Kind of hit the nail on the head, right?

So impressions is a count of how often people see your content ranking on a Google search results page, right? So they've googled a query and your page has popped up along with ten other pages or whatever. And they may not have clicked it because it may be at the bottom of the page, or it may be kind of overshadowed by somebody else's page or whatever, but it's ranking, it's been seen. And generally what we find is that impressions are a kind of lead indicator for clicks, right? As they go up, clicks start to follow. So even if you're not seeing clicks yet, you'll often see impressions ramping up.

I would also say you could look at where the page's ranking, and if it started off ranking at position sixty five or something in Google, and it's now ranking at position like twenty five, then you could say we're definitely making progress and it's going in the right direction, and I'd expect that to start.

Position twenty five is not generating any business for me. And I've spent a small fortune on this. Julie.

Yes, but we've moved it to twenty five. We carry on doing this. We will move it to a point where it will be getting enquiries.

You can guarantee that, can you?

I can't guarantee anything. And if an agency guarantees you something, then run a mile because you cannot guarantee something. When you don't have.

You can guarantee a lot. I think this you cannot guarantee that somebody will be position one in a Google search result with. Unless it's a really obscure search that any any idiot could rank for.

If you've moved from position sixty five to twenty five in four months, you're definitely doing something right though.

Yeah, it could be, though, that that next push from position twenty five to top ten is really hard and might take way longer than it took to get from position sixty five to position twenty five. But as Alex said, these are what we would call lead indicators, not lag indicators. So if we see the site pages on the site appearing more in search, even if they're not getting clicked, that's good. Yep. If we start to see clicks but we're not getting leads, That's okay, because we're not getting that many clicks. And the conversion rates in most industries are quite low. Quite surprisingly low. Um, so this is this is this is all the sort of stuff, uh, to any marketing managers listening, this is all the sort of stuff you should be looking at. Yeah. You know, it's very easy just to focus in on like, we're not getting leads and in competitive niches. It is going to take a while. What can we do to kind of in an inbound marketing context, what can we do to kind of backfill that, to fill that chasm between not getting any clicks and starting to get clicks, which can take, as you said earlier, potentially twelve months.

We would probably suggest doing Google ads because you're still.

Is that inbound or outbound?

Well, I think it's kind of mostly inbound because people are searching. People are searching and you're only showing up when they're searching. If difference is you're paying to appear rather than.

Yeah.

And let's face it, most people don't even realise their adverts. They just see a thing on the page that seems to answer the question they're.

Asking, so they know what they are. And sometimes I even click on ads by mistake because I'm just like, oh, that's the thing. And like, I didn't actually mean to do that.

Well, sometimes as well, like it just goes back to what you were saying earlier about, you know, you can get from position twenty five to position ten or whatever. Can we guarantee you clicks? The answer is no, because on some Google search pages, the top five results are ads. And then there's a little widget that tells you where the nearest local people are. And then there's some questions and answers. And it's, you know, like the organic listings are right at the bottom of the page.

So a client and we've worked really hard and we've got them up to like position four or five in Google for all the things they want to rank for.

And they still.

They're still near the bottom of the page because there's so many ads and stuff at the top.

Yeah. And so I think Google ads is essentially just like kind of organic on, on steroids, isn't it? You're just paying Google to kind of skip the queue. And the downside is you have to keep paying Google to stay there. But the flip side is, yeah, you can use it to very quickly get the, the leads and also to test the pages, right. So if we're saying this page should be super persuasive and people should read it and instantly convert, and then, you know, but we have to wait six months to see if that's the case. It's like, well, actually, you can put a Google Ads campaign up. You can get people to the page and see what they're doing long before you.

So by the time you're getting the organic.

You can start improving.

The page would probably be working better than it would have been if you hadn't done that one hundred percent.

And we're doing that on our website, right? That's the thing we're doing at the moment is, you know, while we're waiting for stuff to start ranking organically so that we can start improving on it, we'll just pay for some traffic. It's not the end of the world. It's just a bit more expensive.

Yeah, yeah. Um, hats off by the way. Um, again now, um, my hat is off. I am not a devil's advocate anymore. I think the whole paying thing, paying for search, paying for content. What all this boils down to is to do this stuff properly, needs a sensible budget. And I think that is the biggest stumbling block, because marketing traditionally has been the poor relation of just about every other seat at the at the at the board table. That's right.

Marketing is taking a long time to get to the board table at all.

Yeah. And there are people on the board table who don't think marketing should be there.

Yeah.

It's still yet, as we've shown in some of the very simple examples in this podcast, this stuff generates business and helps businesses to grow.

Yeah.

Yeah. It works.

Yeah. Without turning it into a rant, I think this is the most frustrating thing, isn't it? Is when you're given the budget and you're allowed to do the work, you can see it works very quickly. And then people are like, oh, this is great. I wish we'd started doing this earlier, but there's still an awful lot of that kind of initial resistance where people.

Always say that you're, you know, if you don't, don't start, you're still six to nine months away from it working. So the sooner you start, the sooner you can actually, you know, get the enquiries coming in.

Yeah. And the thing to remember is, um, and we were going to podcast today about imposter syndrome and the anxiety that agency people who work in agencies experience.

From the coalface.

We were going to talk about that and decided that it might just kind of come up in the podcast rather than be given its own episode. Um, agencies are there to help your organisation thrive by getting more business from Google and.

Yeah, whatever, whatever.

Wherever online.

That's right.

And it's worth remembering that the agencies don't make the rules. Yeah, Google made the rules. Google works in a certain way. Some of it we understand and we know about, and some of it is a well kept secret.

It's the secret will be different tomorrow from what it is today.

Yeah.

Not really. I mean, I.

Know the basics, but.

No, I mean, Google changes its algorithm all the time in order to make to try and get rid of the people who are gaming the algorithm. That's the fundamental thing. If you're if you're doing it right in theory, if you're doing it right, um, in, you know, you should be okay. But the agencies are there to help you navigate this, and they're there to help you do what's required. If you want to play that game and you don't have to play that game, you can just buy ads. You can just appear in Google by paying for it, you know, and just have a website that just has every single page on your website is a selling page. You can do that. You can pay for TV ads and radio ads and go to trade shows and, you know, use the shoe leather and employ a big sales team and you can do all that stuff. Nobody's forcing your hand. But if you want to try and get more business from Google search, then agencies like us read evolution and plenty of other really good agencies out there are there to help you do it. What they do takes time and effort, and it's not cheap and it's absolutely worth the investment.

If you do. None of those options are cheap. You know, going to trade shows, employing a sales team, doing TV advertising, none of it's cheap. If you actually want to make an impact, it's very difficult to do that without spending the money.

Well, I think as well, like probably there's an argument to be made for the fact that you should be doing all of those things as well. Right? Because what we're not saying is that inbound marketing is the answer to all of your problems, and it's going to guarantee business growth or any of that. What we're saying is there is a unique opportunity to use the internet to get in front of people at a specific part of the sales process. But that's not to say that, you know, it won't be much better and much more powerful if you're going out and doing all these other things using all these other channels as well.

It totally depends on the business and you know, how, how people buy in that industry.

What surprises me, because we do from time to time, um, do some analysis of competitors websites and to see what they're doing. And it really surprises me how many very successful agencies don't do inbound marketing. They only advertise using Google ads and the like. And I know that because when you analyse their website, you can see that they don't rank for anything. They don't get found organically at all. Yet they're they're selling a service to help businesses get found organically. Yeah, I think to a certain extent we went or maybe still are too much the other way. We generate pretty much all our business from inbound marketing and referrals, and now we do experiment, and we are currently experimenting with other techniques, including paid search, etc., which we know is very powerful, but we've just been, I don't know.

Well, we haven't really needed it.

We haven't really needed to do it. That's right. And probably still don't. But we thought, well, we might as well play with it and see what's out there, which is great.

Yes. And I think you need to kind of be aware of what the marketplace is like.

Yeah. That's right. So what I'm saying is, you know, you can thrive and succeed without doing inbound marketing, but it's a different business model. It's a different business growth model.

Yeah. And I mean, I think, you know, it's, it just makes sense in most industries to have a website that sits there and does more than just look pretty.

Yeah. I'd also be very suspicious of agencies that claim to be good at inbound marketing, but aren't actually doing it themselves. It's always a bit of a red flag, really.

Yeah. I don't know where I am on that, I don't disagree. Um, at the same time, you could put together if you had the budget, a fantastic team of people and you're not going to feed that team of people with great work using inbound marketing anytime soon.

Yeah. That's true.

So you could just go flat out into paid search and LinkedIn and all that kind of stuff and generate business that way. And you still can. Any business can do that, I think.

Well, most.

Yeah, absolutely.

And if you've if you've got enough money.

Yeah. Well this is the problem isn't it. It's that you end up trapped or locked into that model forever if you don't take the time to build up that content. I mean, these agencies that you're talking about, the day they turn their PPC marketing off is the day they leads dry up. And that is, I think, the great risk, isn't it, of not investing in inbound is that long term, you're going to be tied to doing whatever you're doing forever. Whereas with inbound, if you did it, you know, realistically, if you did it and it took two years to pay off. The point is it would then keep paying off for the next ten years, potentially.

Yeah.

We've got a client who we're not working with at the moment.

And they still.

Get and there's consistent streams from stuff that we did a good few years back.

Yeah, yeah that's right.

I mean, yes, it will slow down over time.

Particularly French client that we're talking about. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I hope people are a bit clearer about what inbound marketing is after this kind of rambling journey through inbound marketing with, with some real life examples and, and, you know, some results somewhat anonymised, but nonetheless shared. Um, any closing thoughts, Julie?

Um, no, I just think it's, it's about a process. It's about planning it. It's not just about chucking stuff out there and hoping it works. It's about doing the research and understanding why you're doing it and what you want people to do when they arrive on your website.

So no.

Alex, no.

Um, only that you have to think long and hard about what it is you want to tell people as well. So like we've talked a lot about using inbound marketing to get people on your website and persuade them. The element we haven't really covered is how to also use those opportunities to kind of build your brand and kind of establish what you're about. But maybe that's another podcast.

It could well be.

Yeah, going back to the, the BBN mix tape that I was a guest on, um, talking about search engine optimisation. Um, the one the episode before that, I think was the chairman of BBN, Cliff Collier, and he was very much talking about business to business marketing and about how important brand is and how the industry has kind of lost sight of that.

We really have.

We've been kind of wowed by the data driven marketing tool wizardry side of things, and forgotten that great brands, great organisations rather are built on great brands. So it's a, it's a good listen. It's worth listening to. Um, see, we're happy to plug other people's podcasts. If you want to come on our podcast and talk about any aspect of digital marketing, inbound marketing stuff. Then we'd love to hear from you if you think you can add some value to the conversations that we have. I'm sure you.

Can.

I'm sure.

You can.

Yeah.

But other than that, we're just coming up to nearly an hour, which is one of our longer podcast. Sorry. Yeah. And it's sunny and I'm going to play golf. So even though it's going to rain later. Boo...

Probably why.

I'm not going to do this because I got told off in the office the other day for these long rambles I do at the end of the podcast and nobody's interested in this. I said it's fine. They can turn it off if they're not interested in these rambles.

You're doing it now.

At this point because he's off, on one.

I'm not, I'm not because I really do want to sort of wind this up and go and check my emails and see if there's anything I need to deal with right now. I'm back to the office later because I'm not the sort of person. Um. That's it.

Thank you very much.

Steam running out.

Yep.

Thank you.