Heard The Cool Kids Talk About RevOps And Wondered WTH? We Explain It – Episode 99

Okay, so what are some simple steps that people could take towards embracing the concept of revenue operations?

Well, I think something really simple would be, like we've alluded to several times, just getting a shared database for marketing and sales to be working off the same page. Like, you know, sort of starting to eliminate those data silos so that everybody can see what everybody else is doing is a really simple and obvious first step.

And at the core of that is a customer relationship management system, which is why in the previous episode, we gave a high level overview of customer relationship management systems, CRMs, and why they are a low cost, no cost from a technology point of view thing to implement. Why? They're definitely something that pretty much every business should have, and there's no reason to be using a spreadsheet. Okay, welcome back to Digital Marketing From The Coalface, the podcast where Dave and Alex kind of talk about shit they know nothing about, and hopefully it's interesting.

Yeah, it's a great way of introducing this episode. That's right.

Well, yeah, this episode will be interesting because I'm basically here just to sort of, um, ridicule you because you're the one that's done most of the research on this subject.

So I talk buzzwords you. Yeah, yeah.

Basically I might allow some buzzwords, buzzwords in this one anyway, so let's give it a go.

It's alright though, because this is a subject that nobody really knows anything about.

Well, it seems that way, doesn't it? I mean, having done quite a lot of research and recognising that um, it's a thing and we're going to talk about revenue operations, which is like become known as rev ops. It's fair to say probably it's more of a big thing over in the States. They're always ahead of the curve, especially as people like HubSpot, American companies are driving this, this idea. But, uh, I'm going to ask you, put you on the spot a little bit and ask you to sort of privacy for anyone listening who's not really sure. And what Revops is really about.

I, I sort of suspected this might be coming. Um, I'm not going to do what you asked. It's really tempting. Um, because obviously with all of these things, there's sort of an elevator pitch that you'll see repeated ad nauseam across the internet, and it's riddled with buzzwords. And I actually got one over here actually, just as an example, it's like revenue operations is the strategic integration of sales, marketing and service departments. And it's like your brain's already turned off, right? You're already sort of bored. I think a better thing to do is to ask, what problem is this new shiny tool trying to fix? Right? Yeah. And I think one of the things that's really interesting about this is there will be lots of people listening to this, I'm sure, who run successful B2B companies.

There are never.

Lots of people listening. There will be.

You've seen the numbers, you know, to basically it's basically your cat. Um, you know.

No, my cat got bored ages ago. The cat's like, turn this off. Put something else. on.

That's cats for.

You. Put the thing with the mice on again. Yeah.

I like it.

That have sort of a sales department, a marketing department, maybe a customer satisfaction, customer services sort of aftercare department.

Well, yeah, it could more broadly speaking, customer services, customer aftercare. We could probably think of those people as the people who, who do shit, the people who deliver what the marketing people and the salespeople implementation.

Sure. Yeah. And they'll have all of these departments. And there's a very good chance that each of those departments looks like it's doing a really good job on the KPIs that are key performance indicators or whatever metrics they choose to measure themselves on. Um, and, and yet the company itself is not making as much money as it could be or not performing particularly well. And I guess the whole point of revops is to sort of take a look at that situation where you've got these three different departments doing their own thing, doing well in inverted commas, but not making you a lot of money and actually sort of turning it into one sort of super department that does things much more efficiently and does actually generate the revenue that or the revenue potential that your company has, I guess.

So is it in essence, about maximising revenue, um, by taking an holistic view of the whole business, everybody in the business in the past, everybody plays in generating revenue.

Yeah. And also top marks for an holistic because Jesus Christ, when people miss the n so. Sorry, you can't read.

I didn't write it down either. Um, okay. I guess what we need to try and do then, um, given that what we try to do on, uh, digital marketing from the coalface is make sure everything's in plain English and distill it down, not dumb it down, I hasten to add, but distill it down to shit. You can actually do stuff you can actually implement. Yeah. Now let's start by saying, um, tools like Uh, HubSpot and probably Marketo and all of these other things. They're all using the whole Revops thing as a way of selling their software. So it's definitely a case that you can buy software, but do you think it's fair to say that buying software will not solve your revops challenges? It will give you a tool to maybe implement it and do it. But it's it's not it's not just about software.

Yeah, I think like fundamentally what we're talking about is that there is a problem with the way that companies think or the way that people, the way that strategies work, that is sort of fundamentally preventing things from working properly. You can't just stick a bandaid on it. You're not going to go and get some off the shelf software. And, you know, I hasten to add, one of the things I think we'll probably get to a bit later is that this sort of software like HubSpot and Marketo and that sort of thing is essential, but it's not going to solve the problem on its own. I think you have to start by a recognising the problem and B thinking of ways of fixing it. And then the software will help you do that.

Okay. And you can correct me if I'm wrong because, you know, I've, I've, um, I've got a view on this. I've, I've got some knowledge on this subject, but I think you've gone a bit further on. So say, for example, um, the marketing department, identify an ideal customer profile. Yes. They analyse that, they do all of the stuff they should be doing, which is trying to understand who their ideal customers are, who their ideal customer is. Uh, what problems that buyer persona, that ideal customer has, what they search for, for example, where they search, what they search for, how do they try and solve that problem? Making sure then that the company that that marketing person works for is the one they find. So the marketing person has done their job. Just, just let me finish this train of thought that the marketing person has done their job and they've attracted somebody in, right? They then it works and an inquiry comes in and the sales team get. John Smith has made an inquiry, and without looking at any of the data that was gathered by the marketing team, as in, how did that person find the business? Who are they? Where are they? What questions did they ask? What content did they look at? They simply ring John Smith up and say, I believe you want to buy some shit from us. Yeah. And that is an example of Revops going horribly wrong.

Yeah, exactly. Or like I read a really interesting example that was sort of along the same lines where basically somebody was sort of selling a technology, a B2B thing. They were motors, and the whole marketing was around the fact that they were green and eco friendly and lean and disruptive, and they were coming into this market and sort of shaking things up, and they had the most efficient motor around. And then the sales scripts that the guys were reading once they'd sort of landed the lead and, and converted them was all about the fact that this company had been building these motors for forty years and that they were, you know, a safe pair of hands and that it was all sort of very reliable and trustworthy. And those two messages just jar horribly. That's right. And if somebody's expecting this sort of lean, disruptive green energy company and then they get these sort of old, oh, yeah, we've been at this for four decades. They're immediately on the back foot. So yeah, I think this is exactly it, isn't it? It's where departments just aren't communicating, where things are just sort of becoming very inefficient and tangled and messy.

Yeah. That's right. I think it's a common issue that sales and marketing people are often at loggerheads. Yeah. There's there's almost and I and I, for the life of me don't understand why there's almost an adversarial relationship between the sales team and the marketing team.

Well, I think philosophically, though, do you not think it's partly because we're being measured on the same thing, like we want to take credit for? Oh, look at all the people that we've attracted. Look at all the people we've engaged. Look at all the people we've converted. And sales want to take credit for all of the people who were never going to buy the thing, and are now going to buy the thing because of their amazing sales talents. And there's a sort of like, naturally, if you split these two things in two, everybody's sort of competing over the same small pile of, of winds effectively to try and make themselves look good. And I think to be honest, part of the the really good thing about Revops is that it does sort of start to eliminate that a little bit. Okay.

So moving on from the marketing team did their job. The sales team were then passed some contact information, didn't review the information, the data that the marketing team had had. And this kind of leans into the fact that, you know, if you speak to anybody who knows about Revops, they'll talk about how it's data driven. Yeah. Um, I think that might be overplayed. I think data in marketing is overplayed because we, because we gather so much data now, we think of ourselves as a data driven, data driven, um, discipline, which we are, but I think, I think maybe the human element is left out of that somewhat.

Yeah. And I also just think like a phrase, like data driven just sort of obscures the reality of what we're talking about, which is really much simpler. It's like actually share the information you have. And, you know, it doesn't have to be about like data driven and using platforms and portals to make data accessible. It can literally just be as simple as like. Share your insights, you know, talk to each other. But yeah.

So the marketing team did their job. Um, maybe they didn't do it very well if they only passed a contact information across to the sales team who at this point have their database. So the marketing team have their database, the sales team have their database or an.

Excel.

Spreadsheet. We don't like HubSpot. We prefer to use a spreadsheet. And actually Jimmy doesn't even use a spreadsheet. He's got a little black book and nobody ever gets to look in Jimmy's black book. Black book. But anyway, um, somehow the inept sales team managed to flog something and then it gets passed on to be delivered, at which point the delivery team are saying, okay, great, you've got this contract for us and we're going to we're going to work on this thing. And if they're not mindful enough to go and look all the way back to when that customer's, um, inquiry came in and get all the information, then they're going to deliver what they've been told to deliver by the sales team. So you've now got three silos. You've got marketing. Did their job sales think they did their job, and the delivery team now think they're doing what the customer needs, and nobody is having a conversation about what the customer needs, really needs. And, you know, I know I've said this many, many times before, but in our line of work anyway, we often find that I can't get this right. The customer doesn't know what they want until you give them what they ask for, and they realise it's not what they need. And that's quite a common thing. I know it's quite funny.

Um, but it is.

But it is real. It is real. And so if the customer delivery team, if the customer satisfaction team, the people delivering the stuff that the customer actually needs, if they understand everything, then there are opportunities for them to deliver more stuff to that customer. If they understand the customer better by having access to the information that's been gathered while the customer found the business and started going through the process of becoming a customer.

Yeah. And I think it's also worth pointing out that there's a sort of like, um, a natural bias to the way that customers think. Like if you're engaging with somebody and you speak to their marketing team or, you know, you have some contact with the marketing team, like maybe through a chat bot or you email somebody or whatever, and you make a throwaway comment about how, you know, what you'd really love is X, Y, and Z, and that doesn't get passed down the chain. You will never think to say that again. You will assume, oh, I told that organisation that what I really wanted was this. And when the customer service team, you know, via this process of sort of Chinese whispers that were laying out, deliver something that's sort of half of that the client may quite rightly be like, oh, this is good, but it's not great. And that is because they will never think to share that sort of insight again. You know, they've told you already, they've told somebody in marketing and that message can't be passed along. But as far as they're concerned, they've told you what they want and then you haven't done it. And I think that's like a really common situation where people are not super impressed by a service because it didn't deliver exactly what they were expecting, but that expectations just sort of got lost in the ether, I guess. Yeah.

Okay. Let's let's try and take technology out, out, out of the picture altogether. Right. So, um, let's assume that somehow, um, John Smith found red evolution. Okay. So here at Red evolution, we, um, figure out digital strategy for organisations. We execute digital strategy and we use tactics like web design, content creation, search engine optimisation, pay per click, video marketing, etc. we do all of that stuff. Um, and so this person found us, excuse me. And what if at that point we got, because we're only a small agency, there's only ten of us. What if like everybody in the business got round the table and said, right, John Smith from Acme Engineering's been in touch. This is the problem that they have. It's either the problem they have or the problem they think they have. And we all together discuss that client looked at their website, looked at all their marketing stuff, looked at how they currently perform in search and social, and whether they're using paid search and how that's going. Look at their website, look what it's built with, the design of it. Get under the hood, look at the search engine, consoled it. And as a group of people, we had a really good look. So, so almost everyone in red evolution was kind of did that. Would that be, broadly speaking, describable as revenue operations?

Yeah, I think so. I definitely think so. I think that's really like you say, if you take all the technology out of the equation, that's what you're talking about, isn't it? Everybody who has some useful input involved, make sure that whatever you offer that client is right for them, but also right for you as a company can generate maximum revenue and then actually deliver it. Yeah. And I think, yeah, that idea of getting people around the table is what a lot of these very complicated tools are actually trying to do, which is just, yeah, get everybody to sit in and have a conversation.

Because with, with larger, I mean, you can look at this thing as like as red evolution.

It's like, yeah, but you've also.

Got eleven of us. So that's dead easy. So if you've got a large organisation, that's not going to happen, although you could argue you could put together a team from all the relevant parts of the business in order to let that, let those people then go back and share the information.

So this is so this is the whole thing about Revops departments in general, isn't it? Is. I think a lot of large organisations are now pulling together a team that is sort of like head of sales, head of marketing, you know, of customer excellence, whatever bullshit title you've given yourself, and put them in a room together and say, right, go through all of the opportunities to generate revenue, look at our pipeline and say, you know, what could your department be doing differently? How can we sort of share and come up with a better solution for all of this? And I think that is a really good idea. But like you say, it requires a larger organisation. It requires quite a lot of money. It's not something for smaller companies.

But I still think if you if you consider if you consider things from a smaller perspective, you know, then you can extrapolate that out to a larger organisation by, you know, putting together a, putting together a team, you know, for, for us. I mean, you guys, um, get together in theory once a month to have a chat about the business, you know, and that meeting you have excludes, um, three of us who actually, you know, set up and run the agency and own the agency. Um, yeah, the bitch about the bosses session that you have. That's right. And I think one of the early sessions, one of the things that came out of that was the devs said, we'd like to be involved sooner in the conversations with clients. Now, that was probably driven by a desire to just kind of get their hands dirty sooner and understand the technology that the client was using and various other things like that. I'm not sure it was entirely driven by, we'd like to be involved sooner so we can look for opportunities to generate more revenue, but it easily could be um, that, um.

Yeah. And I think it's also worth pointing out as well that it's not always about like necessarily upselling, is it? It's like if the devs are involved earlier in that conversation, they can propose solutions that are more likely to lead to a good outcome and generate more revenue for us just by building sort of faith in our customer base, right? Really delivering well. Yeah. Yeah.

For sure. Okay. So the way that larger organisations, um, moving on to think about them, the way that larger organisations are thinking about revenue operations is they're appointing like head of revenue operations. That's now a thing. Now it's now a job title that somebody who was in charge of revenue. And yeah, I kind of think I might quite like, enjoy, I might quite enjoy doing something like that because I think one of my strengths is I can have conversations with the creatives, with the geeks, with the business people I can speak to, CEOs, I can speak to marketing managers, I can speak to people who are actually delivering, um, you know, projects and work and stuff like that. I kind of have that, you know, what I'm trying to say is I'm not really good at it. I'm not very good at the, at doing stuff, but I can actually talk, talk and.

Have a bit of a think. Yeah.

That's right. Yeah. I had to think about that. Um, so what these people that are being put in post, uh, to help businesses generate more revenue, revenue, operations, head of revenue operations, they're basically taking this holistic view, as I mentioned before, this view from the helicopter, as some people like to think of, of what's going on and they can identify, um, roadblocks, they can identify areas where there are clearly problems, etc.. Um, do we think that that's just going to become a thing like head of marketing, head of sales, head of Revops.

I think it's tricky to say. One of my fears with the whole Revops thing is like all of these internet sort of marketing buzzwords that sort of evolve and appear suddenly is that it runs the risk of sort of I don't know how to say this in a way that maintains our, I want to say, crawls up its own ass. Well, there we go. Um, yeah. Um, but, you know, it's at risk of becoming too sort of airy fairy and untethered in reality and may just disappear because people think, oh, this is clearly nonsense. I think it's founded in a really interesting sort of observation and a kernel of definite truth. And I think most organisations could really do with somebody that is detached from all of those specific roles and can sort of take that view as to whether or not it becomes widely adopted, I don't know. I think it should. I think it would be really useful. Um, I'm a big fan.

I think. Go on.

I was just gonna say there's just a really interesting sort of case study. I was reading about this where somebody was basically saying that, you know, they had this company that was selling solutions, um, to engineers and the marketing team was sort of working under the assumption that, oh, you know, we sell this solution to engineers. They're men. They're between the ages of forty five and fifty. Whatever the customer satisfaction team, at the end of the process, the implementation people knew for a fact that the only people who came back time and time again were engineers who fit that profile, but that also had like a really supportive finance department and a CEO that was willing to invest in technology. Yeah, there's nobody there to sort of just, you know, close that loop, stop marketing to any old engineer and start marketing to engineers from companies of this size with a supportive CEO, with a finance department made up of engineers or something like that. Yeah. And you just need somebody who can sit above all of it and look down and say, well, actually, if we just take that insight and put it over there, suddenly we stop wasting all of our time and money. And that's. Yeah, I think that is worth a lot of money to a lot of organisations.

Yeah. Okay. There was something I was going to say when you were talking then. It's kind of escaped me. I'm not sure what exactly what it was, but, uh, you know, you were talking about the challenge of, um, making sure that revops doesn't become like this buzzwordy thing. And I think more importantly, gets infiltrated by, I don't know, bullshitters and the usual crowd of bandwagon jumpers. You know what I mean? That's the problem with it, I think. And you know, oh yeah, I'm a revops guy, you know, because I know how HubSpot CRM works and I can actually talk to people and maybe that's, I don't know, maybe that's all you really need to be. What was interesting when I was researching and you were researching as well, um, was there weren't many really great case studies out there of like, this is what we did. And this happened as a result of it. Yeah, it's kind of intuitive and obvious that if you understand your customer better and everyone in your organisation recognises they play a vital part in making sure that you generate as much revenue as possible from every customer you've got. And that sounds mercenary, you know, it's like, it's not about it's not about like screwing people. It's about recognising. Okay. Stop talking. Rewind, David. How often have you been in a situation, whether it's with Red evolution or any other organisation you've worked with and you've had a conversation with a customer and they've said, oh, I didn't realise you did that. Yeah. I mean, you know, that is kind of what Revops is about, isn't it? It's about making sure that customers understand everything that's going on there. It's making sure that the marketing people don't think of a customer as a person who buys SEO. They think of a customer. In our case, that is, they think of a customer as someone who wants to generate more business online. They want to generate revenue using their website, social, whatever. That's who they really are. And therefore it's if everyone in red evolution understands that that's what that customer is trying to do. Because we were talking this morning, weren't we, about how, you know, we are as an agency, doubling down, focusing in very much on only working with people that want to use their website and social media, etc., to.

Generate to.

Generate business and generate revenue. Um, because simply building pretty websites is, um, something we're more than capable of doing, but it's not really what floats.

Well, long term you're on a hiding to nothing, aren't you? Because you'll deliver a pretty brochure website for ten or twenty thousand pounds or whatever. And then this person will go away and say, well, I'm very happy. It doesn't make me any money. So it wasn't a great investment and I won't be doing that again. But I'm very happy with the finished product. Whereas if you help somebody build a website that actually generates revenue by using SEO and PPC marketing and video marketing and all of that stuff, then, you know, chances are in five or six years time, we'll still be working with them. So yeah, I mean, from a business standpoint, it just makes sense, doesn't it? All of this stuff. And I think those lessons are applicable to most organisations. You know, unless you are literally just selling one widget and that widget is all you sell, there is definitely a chance to sort of ingratiate yourself with, with customers and become indispensable to them.

That's right. Okay, so what are some simple steps that people could take some baby steps towards? um, embracing the concept of revenue operations.

Well, I think something really simple would be, like we've alluded to several times, just getting a shared database for marketing and sales to be working off the same page. Like, you know, sort of starting to eliminate those data silos so that everybody can see what everybody else is doing is a really simple and obvious first step.

And at the, at the core of that is a customer relationship management system, which is why in episode ninety eight, this is ninety nine, I think. So the previous episode.

We're getting old.

Are we? You know, we gave a high level overview of customer relationship management systems, CRMs, and why they are a low cost stroke, no cost from a technology point of view thing to implement, why they're great, why they're not complicated, why they're definitely something that pretty much every business should have. And there's no reason to be using a spreadsheet or some system that somebody wrote, or.

Your email inbox or your email inbox. I saw a really funny thing on the internet that was about like, basically how the entire sales department were just all using their own individual email inboxes, and then being surprised that they'd all contacted the same person twice and stuff like that. It's just like a CRM just eliminates so many of the problems that we're talking about here. I think straight off the bat, and it gives you a more visibility of what's happening. And also, I just think in implementing it, you force people in sales and marketing to start thinking, oh, actually there is a bigger picture here. There's more to this than just like my job. I don't just get to hand leads to sales and say, all right, that's yours. Now. Like I have to sit and look at them in the CRM. Yeah, yeah.

I know that. Um, many years ago, Mike and Mike Lieberman at square two was talking about inbound sales. Now, you know, inbound marketing is about marketing activity that brings people to you as opposed to using outbound techniques like radio advertising and magazine advertising, where you're basically shouting to lots of people who are not interested, hoping that the one or two people are the inbound was very much thinking about the problems your ideal customers are trying to solve and bring them in. But he was talking then before he was talking about Revops, which I know he talks about a lot now, both in his blog posts and his podcast, which I highly recommend. Um, he talked about inbound sales and it was about this idea of the sales process being, continuing the marketing process of helping people understanding their problem and taking them gently towards becoming a customer as opposed to like, yeah, you've been talking to marketing, here's a contract, sign it now.

Which is again, much easier to do if you have all that data that marketing have gathered about what their problem is, and even something as sort of instrumental as what search did they first make in Google that led them to, you can tell you so much about how to sell to somebody that you just miss without a CRM. And again, with a CRM, you will have access to all of that data, won't you? Yeah.

So if you did nothing but, um, implement a CRM.

Um.

Again, episode ninety eight, take a look, take a, have a listen. If you do nothing but that and make sure everybody recognises that there's a lot of conversations going on in there, which will give you some fantastic customer insights. Then that would be a great baby step to take, wouldn't it?

It's a great baby step. Yeah.

And if you want to take technology out of the equation altogether, this idea of if you're a smaller organisation as a new one, a new prospect comes in, get the team together and discuss that prospect. You might be amazed at what the different insights that everybody has as to how you should go back to the client, what you could potentially potential client, customer, what you could say to them, what you could offer to them, etc..

Yeah. And I mean, I think another potential baby step, you know, just, just moving away from that sort of CRM idea is just put your sales and marketing team in a room together and say, you know, look, let's discuss ways of making this more efficient. I mean, I think you'd be surprised how much, how much sense this makes to most people when you sit down and talk to them about it, and also how much input those people will have on small organisational changes that will massively sort of change the way that people do things. I think that whole idea that sales and marketing are at loggerheads and don't communicate is valid, but also completely unnecessary. Like you can just sit everybody down and say, look, you know, just work this out, you know.

Yeah. So removing silos, you know, getting people to stop thinking about marketing sales, you know, delivery. Yeah. Different aspects of delivery. It can happen within delivery as well. We're not saying that, you know, when it comes to the delivery of the work that generates revenue for you. I mean, that area of the business also has its own silos. You know, it'll have a design department who don't talk to the content department, who don't talk to the SEO department, who don't talk to the devs who are building the thing. If we're talking about a website, for example.

Yeah. And I mean, even in an organisation as small as ours, that does happen. Sometimes it does. Situations do crop up where somebody's been tasked with some work. They don't really understand the context. They don't really know why they're doing it. They're maybe not as engaged as they would be if they did have all of that context and story. And what they deliver at the end of it isn't quite what the client wanted. And I think that, you know, all you can really do is, like you say, try and break down those silos, get everybody talking to everybody else, even if it is very quick. It doesn't have to be a big commitment. You don't have to have like an hour long meeting every day or something. It just, you know, get people to talk about projects.

Yeah. Okay. I think as a, as a sort of short introductory chat about, um, about revenue operations, we've covered quite a lot of ground. Is there anything else that you want to, um, you know, shoehorn into this chat?

No, I don't think so. I mean, I think it's probably something we're going to be talking about a bit more, um, in coming episodes, isn't it. So I think we'll have time to dive in. But yeah, as a sort of top level.

But what we, what we're going to do and what we're going to continue to, to at least try and do is, is cut through the crap. Yeah. Um, and not sort of make it out to be some kind of weird black magic because marketing, sales, running businesses, there's enough black magic around anyway. And we all know actually that most of it's is just, just bullshit. So we want to, we want to kind of try and help people, you know, grow their businesses. It's fundamentally why we exist. We enjoy doing that. We enjoy using the tools and techniques that we employ to make that happen. It's not just like we are business consultants that tell you, I'll go and do this and go and do that. We like doing shit, so that's good. But I think it would be nice if we can, as we continue to unpick it for ourselves. We're on a bit of a journey ourselves. We are not setting our stall out here as like, hey, you know, we've been doing rev ops since like, you know, two thousand and three sort of thing. It's like.

You say.

We're actually. Yeah. I mean, there's an element of we have been doing DevOps because we are an organisation who talk to each other and communicate and look at a look at a client in a, in a way that maybe some other organisations don't. And that gives us certain insights, maybe.

Yeah, we haven't been calling it rev ops. But again, I think that's sort of the danger of all of these internet buzzwords, isn't it, is that they try to sort of establish themselves as something other, something new, something superior. And it's yeah, yeah, it's.

You need to invest in this now. Hey, you know, you need to buy this. Have you got a thing?

Do you want this book?

It's like, oh, no, no, no.

Oh yeah. Speaking of which, it just went through. Because I know sometimes we do bitch on this. About gated content. When I was doing the research for this episode, I've been downloading ebooks left, right, and center just to sort of get the sort of full spectrum of what people are saying about it, the amount of ebooks that were like, oh, and also give me your company address and, and your mother's maiden name and stuff like that. It's just, yeah, it's an industry now. Rev ops. I think that's the thing. And people will try to sell it to you very aggressively. But I think, like you say, if we can sort of help people by just sort of cutting through some of that and explaining how to do it in simple terms, then. Yeah.

Good. Okay. You've been listening to Digital Marketing From The Coalface with me, Dave and Alex. Um, if you'd like to come on the show and talk about Rev Ops, we'd love to hear from you if you want to come on and talk about anything else, we'd love to hear from you. In the meantime, we're going to go away and start thinking about episode one hundred.

We are.

Yeah, yeah. And, uh, we'll speak to you again soon.

Thanks very much.