So Alex, How Did You Become A Digital Marketer? - Episode 35

As we approach the, uh, the Christmas break, what we thought we'd do was find out a little bit more about Alex. Now, Alex has been doing these podcasts with me since we started them in September and joined the Red evolution team after a short spell as a freelancer with us. I don't really know much about Alex's backstory, and I think it's always interesting to find out how people got to where they are now.

The thing about marketing that I've always really enjoyed is the puzzle, right? It's like you sit down on a day and you think, this client needs to solve this problem, how am I going to do it? And the issue I had with working at a big agency, and this isn't to deter anybody from working with big agencies at all, but the issue I had with it was that where I was, my job became more about kind of what's good for the agency, get the most out of this engagement with this client, not how can we solve their problem anymore. I've always really valued having close, productive working relationships with the people around me. So I think as soon as we, like sat down and started having conversations, it became very clear that we were very much on the same wavelength. I was like, yeah, this is the perfect place for me.

Okay. And welcome back to Digital Marketing From The Coalface as we approach the Christmas break, Christmas, not the holidays. Um, because we are in the United Kingdom and we don't do the holidays as we approach the Christmas break, what we thought we'd do in this episode was find out a little bit more about Alex. Now, Alex has been doing these podcasts with me since we started them in, um, September and joined the Red evolution team after a short spell as a freelancer with us, um, back in April. Was it something like that?

Yeah, something like that feels like years ago, doesn't it? But yeah, it does.

Oh God. It feels like a long time. I know, um, but I'm very much aware that I don't really know much about Alex's backstory. And I think it's always interesting to find out how people got to where they are now. Um, so what I'm going to do is, um, we're going to dig in to Alex's story. Uh, we're going to probably wander around a little bit and explore some digital marketing subjects as we go, because it is, after all, a podcast about digital marketing. Um, so let's start, let's, let's start with, hey, where are you from?

Which funnily enough is Leeds is the answer to that question. Um.

Hey, is that Leeds is North Yorkshire, isn't it?

Yeah. Well it's West Yorkshire technically but yeah.

It's is it West. Okay. West North Yorkshire.

It is all Yorkshire really at the end of the day isn't it. Um yeah. So that's where I kind of grew up and went to university. Um don't know how I ended up in Aberdeen but uh, there you go.

And university for you, uh, was Leeds University. So what was why did you decide to go to uni in your hometown instead of doing what a lot of people do and buggering off somewhere else?

Well, my parents moved to Scotland about a year and a half before that, so I stayed behind. Okay, so I still got to escape from them, but also because, well, to be perfectly honest with you, at the time, Leeds had one of the best English courses in the country, which is what I studied. Um, and when I first went to university, I honestly thought I was going to kind of stay on and be an academic. So I was all kind of, you know, being very kind of.

You could do a lot worse.

Well, yeah, it could be a lot better as well.

So yeah, maybe, maybe I nearly went to Leeds College of Music to study jazz and light music as a as a drummer. I went for the interview when I was sixteen and in the end decided not to. And we'll talk about my journey in a different episode. Yeah. And I'm not sure if I went to Leeds once to audition for a band called The Skeletal Family. I'm sure I did. It might have been Leeds, it was somewhere in Yorkshire. Anyway. It's all the same. Yorkshire is all the same because I'm from Lancashire, so you know, I'm from the important county. Yeah. Um, so tell us about, tell us about the study, tell us about doing English because Rob who we will have on the podcast, uh, who another member of the Red devil team, Rob went to Leeds as well. Um, he's just a few years older than you, five or six years older than you, I think. So he would have been there a slightly different time to you when he studied graphic design. Um, but tell me about studying English. I mean, is it, is it just about like, you know, staring at words for three years or. I mean, what do you actually do when you study English?

You just read books basically. Um, yeah, it was, uh, particularly like my interest was in Victorian literature. So, um, kind of Frankenstein, gothic horror, that kind of thing. Um, and also kind of political novels. So a lot of reading, um, a lot of time spent in dusty old libraries. Um, I really enjoyed it.

Did you, uh, did you visit Whitley Bay when you were studying? Did you go to. Isn't that isn't there some kind of gothic horror connection with Whitley Bay, or is it Whitby or. Help me out?

Yeah, it's because that's where Bram Stoker lived, right when he wrote Dracula. And that's where part of it's set as well. Um, but yeah, um, yeah, I mean, there's lots of cool things in Yorkshire. It's an awesome place. Better than Lancashire. Um.

And that's all from coalface for this week. Uh, you've been listening to um somebody droning on and me Dave Robinson. Uh.

But yeah, no, um, it's really interesting. I guess the thing about studying English there, though, is I realised very quickly that that wasn't what I wanted to do with my life. Um, and in, I guess third year, right at the beginning of third year, um, me and a friend decided to set up our own copywriting business. So we chanced upon some articles online talking about how you could write for a living. And we were like, oh, that sounds easy. And in our foolish hubris, set up an actual company called Bussey and Hart copywriting, you know, paid for it, got a website, got everything all set up.

Um, when was this?

When was this?

Uh, yeah.

I can't remember when I graduated. That's terrifying. Twenty twelve. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, so SEO was just kind of like becoming, I guess, a thing that people knew about in the kind of mainstream. Um, and we were kind of aware of that, but we don't, we were very kind of like worthy at that age. We were very, we wrote to TVR, um, they were being resurrected at the time and we wrote a very kind in Blackpool. I. Yep.

Yeah. That's right.

And we wrote them a letter, a very long letter about how badly we wanted to write copy for them. And like, hilariously they got back to us and they were like, yeah, go for it. Like, you know, take your best shot. Um, there was a lot of that where we used to kind of like pick these really big brands that we were definitely going to write for to set up our portfolio, and we'd write them these letters, telling them how much we wanted to write for them, and they'd be like, all right, let's see what you've got. And then we'd never hear from them again. Which you.

Strange. Very strange. Yeah. TVR. I'm sure I saw a tweet recently where TVR is being resurrected yet again.

People just keep.

Buying.

The brand, don't they? I mean, it's a good brand.

I guess. Yeah. I mean, they were all right. I mean, they were basically kit cars. I mean they were they were fibreglass bodied Rover V8 powered. Generally I think um, cars that were they look nice. I mean, I've been in a few TVR. I used to know a guy who sadly no longer with us. It hasn't been for a long time actually. Um, who, who had a TVR dealership in Barrow in Furness. Um, and I did a few little bits and bobs for him when I had Furness car balloting. God, we're going back there. Um, uh, and yeah, they were certainly a mark, you know, a car that had a, had a solid following. You do still see him kicking around, I think. But yeah, I'm sure they're making some sort of resurgence again.

I think they're one of those brands.

I don't know if they're still kitcars.

Kind of fanatics that they people love or hate.

Them. Yeah. That's right. They always sounded nice because they had like, well, they were fiberglass bodied. So I guess you could maybe hear the engine more than you can in metal cars, but are surrounded by a metal body. And they had a lovely roar to them. Um, they were, they were, yeah, they were kind of special. I don't know if they're collectible now. Anyway, it doesn't really matter. You wrote to them and said, hey, we can write fantastic copy for you. And then you went and did, and you did write some copy and you sent it off to them. And what happened next?

Well, they never got back into business.

Oh, by the time you'd sent them the copy, they'd gone bust.

They saw it and they're like, nah, fuck this. Um, no. Yeah, that's exactly what happened, I think. Um, and we did, um, the other one that was Geoffrey West Shoes. I don't know if you've ever encountered them. They're kind of these hilarious, um, over the top kind of rock and roll shoe brand. And we wrote.

All right. Okay.

And we said, oh, your web, your web copy is crap. You know, you don't have proper descriptions for any of your shoes. We'll write them for you. And they were like, off you go then. But just so you're aware, we sell like two hundred and eighty different shoes.

And did you have a go at that one as well?

Yeah we did. And to be fair, like, you know, with a lot of these companies, we did go back and forth, I think just because of the audacity of some like teenagers reaching out and being like, we want to write for you was funny to them, I guess. Yeah. But we did get quite a few like people who were interested, and we did get paid for some of our work. So it wasn't like a, you know, it wasn't a complete joke. It was just kind of funny looking back on it really. Yeah.

Just yeah.

Taking our best.

But do you not think that kind of as you, as you called it earlier this, that hubris, that kind of we can do that attitude, um, was, was, is good. It's to be admired.

I think so, yeah. I just think it's one of those things where like when you, I guess when you are more jaded and you've worked with, you know, people, big brands like that later in life, you realise kind of how silly it is to just kind of reach out to them because they're not really set up for that. You know, they're not really ready or willing to kind of like take people's ideas on board. But yeah, no, it was.

But, but I, I.

Um, I do listen to a lot of podcasts that are directed at agencies, you know, agency growth podcasts and, and various things like that. I do, and you do get these some wacky stories like that where agencies will say, oh, how did you get your big break? Oh, well, we approached such and such a brand and we just went in bold as brass and said we could do X, Y, and Z. And they kind of looked at us like we had two heads and said, go on, then, give it your best shot. We did it and they loved it. And the rest is history. So I don't think I don't think it's ridiculous to do something like that. I think it's I think it's I think it's good to be bold.

It was certainly fun. Um, and we certainly learned a lot. That's kind of served us well later in life, I think. So yeah.

Yeah. So how long did did that business that Bussey and Hart did you say?

Yeah. Bussey and Hart.

Have you have you looked at the website on the Wayback Machine? Have you gone to see if the website's still there? That'll will be quite good fun to investigate that.

Yeah. Um, I don't know how long it lasted. In the end, I think about nine months actually. It was, you know, we made an actual like a fair bit of money, um, enough to live off for a little bit. And then we just kind of decided that we wanted proper jobs with a grown up paychecks. And, uh, yeah, I went and worked after that actually for a business up in Scotland because that's where my parents lived. And I was being a cheeky teenager and decided to move back in with them and sponge off them for a bit. Um, yeah. Which like ironically, I guess that's probably like the low point of my career in hindsight, because I was working for a company that sold, um, alkaline water filters, which I don't know if you know anything about, but the, the whole thing.

I have a, I have a sense that I'm about to learn a whole lot about that. Well, Dave, if you just keep talking while I go and make a cup of tea, is that okay?

Can cure cancer and, uh, anything else that's wrong with you?

Okay, okay, I'm interested now.

You know, it was a complete scam. It was a bit of a hoax, really. Um, but there's, you know, these businesses exist and they do kind of purport to sell these water filters that take all the nasty, acidifying chemicals out of your water and make your body more alkaline and therefore better able to heal itself. And I was writing medical jumbo for a good year or so. Um, and that's where, yeah, I guess I kind of got into a lot of marketing stuff. That's where I learned about PPC, for example. Um.

Pay per click, Google ads.

Yeah. And SEO and where I had my first ever brush with the advertising standards Agency because it turns out you're not allowed to claim that things cure cancer if you have no proof. Who'da thunk.

Okay.

But again, I guess, you know.

And then so, so we've, we've been to uni, we live, we grew up in Leeds, we've been to uni. Um, we got our degree in English. We set up a copywriting business which had some success and was made, you know, you were bald and you went out there chasing some, you know, at the time, big brands, um, and then decided to get a proper job, which was wholly unfulfilling because basically you were being paid to write lies.

Yeah.

Um, uh, what happened next?

Well, one thing I will say about that job though is like, so I went there to write because I was still very much going to be a copywriter at that point in my life. Um, and I ended up doing all of the marketing really, because there was nobody there kind of internally doing any marketing. Um, so what I very quickly kind of had to do was learn about all these different channels and how you could use them to kind of grow a business and generate leads and all that good stuff. Um, and I ended up in a.

Were you still in Leeds when you were learning about generating leads?

I was not. That joke was horrible. That was that was Dave's Christmas gift to you. Listener. Sorry. So I guess I had to like really quickly, kind of like grapple with that whole idea of like there being a marketing strategy and kind of coordinating all these different channels and making everything kind of work together and not just kind of like, you know, hopelessly typing out blog posts and setting up paid ads, which is kind of how it started. Um, and yeah, I guess that was really useful experience because I used that and the kind of growth that I delivered to kind of segue into an agency job. Um, ironically, back down in, in North Yorkshire, in Harrogate, um, just because there was an opening, an agency that I'd admired for a while and I thought, I want to go and work there. Um, and yeah, just kind of applied really and was just like, you know, this is what I've done over the past year of my life. Can I come and work for you instead? Mhm. Um.

And that was a beginning of a long relationship with that particular agency.

Yeah. So I was with pinpoint for five years, I think. Um, I started out again, um, just as a kind of Marketing executive, I think was the proper title. Um, and again, there wasn't like a huge marketing department because like Devo, they started out as a kind of web development and marketing agency. Um, and I managed to kind of claw my way up to being kind of joint head of marketing. Um, and then yeah, got bored in a nutshell. Yeah. Um, I don't know if.

five years with one agency and getting to the point where you were, you know, more or less heading up the digital marketing department, that was pretty exciting. Five years by the sounds of it, like lots, lots going on and a hell of a journey.

Yeah, it was really exciting actually.

So it was really interesting being involved in kind of like growing, um, the brand and building the business up and kind of working for bigger and bigger clients because to begin with, we were working for, you know, small local IT firms and a company that made kind of bespoke car covers for rich people's cars and stuff like that. And in the end, it was kind of like Supercuts and, um. I forget what they're called now. I was on their website the other day as well. They sell buggies. Anyway, big consumer brands. Um, and we did, it was quite interesting, kind of just going through that journey, I guess, and kind of doing all of that, that good kind of growth for businesses. And, but it's also, I don't know if you've ever worked in or with a big agency, but they're also kind of weirdly soul destroying. Um, for me at least. I'm sure some people thrive in them, but it was just a kind of sea of faces in the end. And I just found it very difficult to.

How many were there when before you just before you left, how big had the agency become by that point?

It was, like, forty five.

Good size agency.

Yeah.

Um, and it was just, you know, it just started to get a little bit kind of impersonal. And I wasn't really very fussed on a personal level about what, you know, whether things succeeded or didn't. And I always think that's a danger sign, you know, if you're not kind of fully invested in what you're doing, there's something not quite right there. Um, and I just didn't really want to spend my life doing stuff that was kind of fundamentally unfulfilling, really. Um, and I didn't really, a lot of the people who I'd started at the agency with had moved on because that's very much the environment, isn't it? Everybody kind of sticks around for a couple of years and then goes somewhere else. And you kind of have to you have that churn kind of going on. And I just kind of at a certain point realised that I only had kind of one or two friends left, you know, working with me. And I was like, what am I doing here? You know, kind of wasting my time.

Um, mhm. But you were up by that point. You were in quite a senior position. I mean, it must, it must have been quite a big decision to say, I'm going to stop doing this and go and do something else.

Yeah, I'm quite lucky. Right. So I'm married to a doctor. So so at the time I was like, you can pay for everything, right? And she was like, fine, just whatever. Um, we've had, we've.

I can see, I can see how that can be quite beneficial. Yeah.

We've always had a kind of deal, I guess for as long as we've been together, me and my wife, um, where, you know, we've kind of said the most important thing is that we kind of both feel fulfilled and engaged, and we'll do whatever we can to kind of make sure that the other person gets that. So I think that's been hugely beneficial because I think a lot of people kind of go through life thinking, oh, you know, this is what I have to do to pay the bills. I think that's kind of the yeah, I don't know, really. It's not a very nice way to live. So I'm quite lucky to have that kind of, I guess.

Yeah, I certainly fully endorse the idea of finding something that you really genuinely love doing, uh, as opposed to following the money. It's certainly, you know, it's been the story of my journey has been to not focus on trying to earn the big money. I mean, I have done it, I worked in the oil industry. I was a contractor earning silly money. And I found it, as you just said, wholly unfulfilling. It is. Um, and I think being happy and enjoying what you do is so much more valuable. I was going to say fulfilling again, and then it would just be kind of fulfilling, overdosing and fulfilling. Um, but I think it means that you're not waking up on Monday morning or any morning for that matter, thinking, oh God, no. You know, going, going to that place again. And we've all been there. I mean, I've been in positions, situations where, you know, by nine o'clock in the morning, I'm already looking at my watch, wondering if it's time to go home yet. I mean, when I was working in the oil industry, I really just it just wasn't right for me. But I did something about it. It sounds like you've done exactly the same.

I think, you know, and I think the thing is like the, the thing about marketing that I've always really enjoyed is the puzzle, right? It's like you sit down on a day and you think this client needs to solve this problem. How am I going to do it? And the issue I had with working at a big agency, and this isn't to deter anybody from working with big agencies at all, but the issue I had with it was that where I was in the agency, my job became more about kind of what's good for the agency. How can we save money? How can we make money? You know, how can we kind of get the most out of this engagement with this client. Not how can we solve their problem anymore?

Um. That's interesting.

It's just kind of like completely stopped being about kind of solving problems for people and helping them grow their businesses and just became about kind of essentially exploiting relationships, which, you know, it probably sounds worse than it is. Like that's probably the reality of a lot of businesses. And it's probably a little naive to say that I didn't really like that. But one of the things that I've, you know, always enjoyed about everything I've ever done ever since then has been that I've never had to stop and think, oh, can I afford to spend this much time thinking about this client? Or is that not profitable for the agency? Which, yeah.

Yeah. So we're at a point now where you've decided to leave the agency you've been with for five years. You've built up considerable expertise and knowledge around digital marketing by that point. Um, did you literally walk out the door on, you know, on Friday afternoon finishing that job and then spend some time deciding what to do next. Or did you take some clients with you or what? How did how did you transition from agency person to freelancer?

I literally sat down. So I was at that point, obviously quite good friends with my boss because we'd known each other for several years and, you know, done a lot together. And I literally sat down with him and said, I'm not fulfilled in the least bit here. Um, I'm gonna leave. And he was like, yeah, like, you know, more power to you. Um, obviously I didn't take any clients because I liked him and he is still a friend. Um, and I just left really like, yeah, it was literally kind of that spur of the moment. And I didn't really know what I was going to do. When I first left, I considered going back to uni very briefly, um, decided I actually really enjoyed marketing, but that I wasn't doing it kind of on my terms or in the way I wanted to do it and decided to set up freelance. Um, considered setting up.

When are we talking about now? When was this?

So this was.

Timeline.

three years ago now.

Okay.

I think that's right. Yeah, yeah, that's about right. I freelanced for two years, two and a bit years and then joined Red River.

Okay. Okay. So the the freelance stuff did did that take off quickly? Did you manage to get clients quickly and how did you go about that?

Yeah. So I actually, um, fell back on, um, I don't know if you know, like Upwork, um, and programs like software like that. So that's literally like a website where you can go and hire freelancers and it has a, it has a weird reputation. It has a reputation for like being very cheap, but also strangely on Upwork, some people on there charge a lot of money. Um, and you can kind of, if you position yourself correctly, you can kind of position yourself as a kind of premium provider. Um, and I literally did marketing strategies for people, um, a bit of PPC, a bit of copywriting. Um, and yeah, it gained traction quite fast, I think for a while, for a good few weeks, I was one of the UK's top ten rated freelancers on there and stuff like that. So it gained traction quite quickly. I was quite lucky, I think, um, coming straight out without a plan and just kind of like landing on that. Um, and it was really interesting because I got to work with loads of different clients. So like prior to that, obviously I'd been working for a Magento agency. So Magento is a platform, a web development platform that's mainly used by e-commerce sites. So everything I was doing was business to consumer. Um, and then when I came out and set up on Upwork, I managed to kind of do lots of different things. So I was working for some health companies, some AI companies, some tech firms. It was like super varied really, which was exciting at the time.

Yeah. And how did you find being your own boss? How did you find, uh, you know, not being within the bosom of a bigger organisation?

It was really liberating.

But I'm also really shit at the admin side. So, so I didn't like I'm like so bad. I'm fine to organise my own time and I'm fine at like, you know, doing stuff. What I was really bad at was things like issuing invoices. There'd be clients where like, I didn't invoice them for three months and then I'd be like, I'm really sorry, but I have to ask you for, you know, three grand. Um, that I should have asked you for three months ago. Um, so that was always. Yeah, that was the nightmare. There was just kind of like the, like the admin stuff, the kind of things I guess people end up hiring for, um, and stuff like that, you know.

Peers. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, sorting out the day to day.

So the freelancers, the freelancing sounds like it kicked off pretty quickly and, and went well, um, but two years into that two and a bit years into that, um, I seem to remember just getting an email in from you telling me who you were. And, and, and we at that point were a bit stretched around, uh, pay per click PPC and had had a need for somebody to give us a hand with that. I mean, as a, as a general rule, we don't work with many freelancers at read eval. We've got, we've got a decent term, stable, if you like, of good writers who we do draw on freelance writers, but everything else is kind of done in-house. But we were at that point looking for some help with PPC. And you.

Just.

You just yeah, you just kind of, you just kind of popped up just at the right minute. And we, we did a few projects together, didn't we? And they went well. And I think we enjoyed working together. And I think it wasn't long after you did a little bit of freelance work for us that I said, look, you know, do you fancy joining the team? Because it just seemed like you were the right fit.

Yeah. Well, I think that's the nail on the head. So for me, I feel like I've always really valued having close and good working relations, like productive working relationships with the people around me whenever I've been, you know, whenever I've started to feel very antsy or like I'm in the wrong place, it's generally been because there's nobody kind of on the same level or the same wavelength as me. Like I haven't felt like I've got people to bounce ideas off or to like team work with. So I think as soon as we, like sat down and started having conversations, it became very clear that we were very much on the same wavelength. I was like, yeah, this is like the perfect place for me. Um, and I think that's something that's quite important for me because I guess I don't know whether it's the age I'm at or like, I mean, I've just had a kid just bought a house. So I guess I was like looking to settle down and find a permanent home. Um, and it just all kind of happened, didn't it? Kind of fortuitously.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just thinking about that, I mean, you've, you've, you've been with us since around about April, I think something like April twenty one and it's now December twenty one. Uh, and in that time, yeah, you've got married. You've, I'm trying to get the order right. You got married, had a kid and bought a house. That's about the right order as well, isn't it? Yeah. So yeah, there's a lot happened. There's a lot happened in the last, um, in the last short while really isn't it.

Yeah, but you- I guess I think the thing is like I had a lot of fun freelancing. Um, and I had a kind of period of my life where I wouldn't say like dossing about because I was working very hard, but it wasn't like grown up stuff, you know? I was like doing whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted to do it. And at a certain point, you realise, you know, this isn't necessarily what I want to do forever. It's fun. But I, you know, I like the structure. I like being able to I like the fact that what I do contributes to something bigger than me. Um, which sounds really idealistic, but I think as a freelancer, you realise very quickly that it's just money goes in your back pocket and that's the end of it. There's nothing to kind of grow. There's no kind of legacy there. Yeah. And that's, I think, yeah, that's the kind of thing you start to think about, I guess, when you've got the freedom to, to think about these things.

Yeah, I suppose. Yeah. Um, what, what aspects, uh, of digital marketing particularly, um, interests you? I know the answer to this question, but anyway, I'm going to ask you anyway, what is it particularly that.

I'd be interested to know what you think the answer is actually.

Well go on, tell me what, what aspect of of of. um what aspects of conversion rate optimisation do you prefer? What, what aspects of digital marketing do you really interest you?

It's really funny, isn't it? Because like, I guess I guess you're right. I guess a few months ago I'd have rattled off like a list of channels that I like or a list of tactics that I enjoy, honestly, like conversion rate optimisation appeals to me so much because it is solving puzzles. It is like figuring out how people work and figuring out how to. This is going to sound really manipulative and strange, but how to make people do something that you want them to do? And I think that's the bit of marketing that really does interest me, you know, whether it is trying to like rank a page on Google or get somebody to actually kind of give you their email address, it is that figuring out how to make the thing work the way you want it to as efficiently.

I mean, we, we've spoken about, um, CRO conversion rate optimisation in a previous podcast, and we'll no doubt talk about it in other podcasts. But for anybody who's, uh, who hasn't switched off yet and is still vaguely interested in what we're saying just now. I mean, just tell them. Tell them about, um, conversion rate optimisation and why it excites you so much. And, well, you've kind of said why it interests you so much. You can embellish on embellish that if you want. You can tell us more about that or just outline what it is and why it interests you.

So I guess conversion rate optimisation is all about kind of testing theories. So, you know, if somebody's not doing something, they're not buying a product on your page, they're not giving you their email address. It's about testing different things. We often talk about a B testing in relation to conversion rate optimisation, until you find the kind of winning formula, if you like, to get somebody to take action. So you might be playing around with the words on a page, and you might try three different versions of the wording, or you might try different buttons, you might try moving elements of the page around, or adding video or whatever it takes to try and get people to kind of engage and buy whatever you're selling essentially. Um, and it is just that iterative process, I guess that really attracts me to it. It's that kind of you can work through and think, this is where somebody could fall off. This is where somebody could decide this isn't for them. How do we overcome that objection? And just trying different things until you find what works?

Yeah, because I think a lot of the time people think with digital marketing, it's all about traffic. It's all about search engine optimisation, you know, making sure you appear high up in Google so people find you and click on a link in a search result, arrive on your website, and then miraculously you start doing business with them. And that isn't that isn't how things happen. And that's where conversion optimisation can actually help because you can be in a position where you've done the hard graft, you've started to get the traffic, it's arriving on a web page, but you're still not getting the enquiries, even though, you know, people are looking at what you've got to offer and it's solving that problem, why are they not? What are we not seeing? Why are they being put off? Why are we not managing to get these conversations started with these people who ostensibly look like they're an ideal fit for us?

Well, I think that's the thing. And like I said, it came from a big agency background where a lot of the metrics and KPIs we were using, the things we were saying to clients that were successes were we've got lots of traffic to your website, we've got you loads of new visitors, and a lot of people think, oh, that's really exciting. Lots of people are looking at my web page, but if that doesn't translate to more sales, right? It's just vanity really. At the end of the day, it's not actually helping your business grow. And I think, you know, even even as a kind of experienced digital marketer, for a long time, I hadn't really kind of like put those puzzle pieces together. It never really occurred to me to stop and think, you know, what happens after we've done all this good work and driven all these thousands of people to the page, and now it kind of feels like that's really the start. Like, that's the beginning of the journey, isn't it? You've got some people. Fantastic. But what are you actually going to do with them? And that's the yeah, I guess that's the bit that interests me more now really.

Yeah. And it's often the area where you can have the biggest impact, um, with, with a, with a campaign because it's, it's the area where, You know, you know the people. The people have arrived. And if they're not buying what you're selling or signing up or giving you their details or reaching out and having a conversation with you, then you know it is a piece of work required. There is a piece of work required to try and understand that, whereas other people might just go, oh, well, you know, that's it. We got the traffic. Um, that obviously isn't a search term. That's, that's, uh, is likely to convert into business. Let's go and chase some more traffic. Let's go and buy some more traffic with paid search when in actual fact that might well almost certainly won't be the case.

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point, isn't it, that that retroactive kind of oh, well, that's just they're the wrong people. Let's find some different people rather than actually trying to sit and kind of puzzle out why, why people aren't liking what's on your page. Because sometimes it's dead simple stuff, isn't it? It's just they need more information, or they need you to prove to them that you can actually do it or, you know, whatever it is, whatever their objection is. I think, yeah, a lot of people just kind of skip that step. Really. It's tricky. It's challenging.

I think it's worth speaking to people who actually do reach out. We had a good conversation yesterday with a potential customer, and for whatever reason, we couldn't really figure out why, how they how they arrived. You know, we kind of guessed that they'd come from search, but we weren't. There wasn't a lot of data in, in our analytics that was telling us what they'd done. You know, the journey they'd been on. Um, now for them, they'd carried out a very specific search. They were, they were, they were looking for, um, a HubSpot partner. They were looking for a HubSpot agency and they were looking for an agency in a specific geographic location. So they'd gone HubSpot agency specific geographic location. And lo and behold, we were number one or number two for that search term. And they came onto our contact page and said, hey, can we have a conversation? It was really very simple. It wasn't, um, now somebody else or other people might have done that. They might have landed on that exact page and and still decided, no, I don't want to speak to these guys. It's you know what, I don't I'm not interested in what they're saying. So I, you know, at some point, I think if, if we go forward with this particular customer and I hope we do, it's a really interesting business and I will have that conversation with them and say, well, what was it about the page? What was it about the experience you had when you landed on the site that made you think, you know what, I actually do want to speak to these guys or, you know, was it purely like, well, you know, we just picked ten and you're one of the ten, in which case like, okay, well, we're not even, you know, we're not particularly special. We're just one of ten companies that popped popped up for a search result. And, you know, they just pinged a bunch of emails out. But we did get quite a detailed enquiry. It wasn't just like, we're interested, please call us or anything like that. They went into a little bit of detail, which suggested to me that they were making a bit of an effort.

Yeah, I mean, it's something we've talked about before, isn't it, about like user testing and stuff, which I'm a massive fan of and a massive proponent of. But is that subjective research? It's knowing why individual people make the decisions they make that sometimes you find the most interesting insights, isn't it? Because sometimes you ask people questions like, why did you or why didn't you, you know, go with us and it will be something as simple as, oh, I didn't like, you know, the picture on your page put me off or the colors were too abrasive or do you know what I mean? It's just like weird little things that go into those decision making processes that when you can actually sit and unpick them, you gain some really useful insights.

Mhm. So looking forward, I mean, we are where we are now, and we've now got a bit of an insight into the journey that you've been on to get to where you are now. I mean, I'm thinking twenty twenty two, um, it's going to be a lot of a lot of work around stuff that we've talked about. Um, I don't want to put you on the spot. Is there anything else on the horizon? I mean, we've, we've got our HubSpot gold status now, which is it's no great shakes, to be honest. And it's taken us far too long to get it, but I think we'll be doing more HubSpot stuff. I think, well, we didn't make a big effort. I mean, we've been using it. We like using the software and we've been enjoying using it and concentrating on that. But, um, yeah, I guess if we'd concentrated, it goes back to something you said earlier. Sometimes our focus is, is on stuff that really interests us instead of focusing more on the commercial aspects of the business. I mean, you know, one of the people who's mentored me over the years, you know, he said to me quite recently, certainly in the last twelve months, you know, we'll focus on the stuff that interests you because the other stuff will follow suit. And maybe it will, I don't know. I mean, it certainly feels, you know, we're in a good position as an agency that's goes without saying, but I you know, when I hear other agencies, I hear them, you know, talking, oh, utilisation this and this, that and the other and getting this out of this client, etc.. And there's very much a focus on revenue and a focus on getting more money. And, you know, we kind of haven't maybe done that as much as we could, whether or not that changes for us in twenty twenty two. I don't know. I mean, for me. For me. I want to keep enjoying it, you know?

So yeah, because this is the thing I think, I think one of the things that I will say about radio in general, and this is not an advert for any evolution. I'm not just trying to say come and work with us. I think one of the things that I absolutely love about working here and about, you know, one of the reasons why, why I knew as soon as I started that I was going to stay here and make this my home is because we are all very passionate about what we do. And I know you hate that word, but you know, we all care about it and we all enjoy it. And I think as soon as you lose that and it becomes a business, you know, just for the sake of making money, it's, you know, that's a losing formula, isn't it? Nobody ever worked with an agency because they were great at, you know, kind of keeping themselves in the black and making loads of money. They work with people because they're interesting and they're passionate and they care about what they do.

So yeah, I think so.

Um, but no, for me, the main things are CRO, which I really do think we need to start doing more of. And the other thing is HubSpot, because I think you're right, we have just got gold and we haven't used it that much. But I think there's a lot of kind of untapped potential in there just to use it in more intelligent ways, certainly for our clients. Maybe for us too.

Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Agreed. And we have got some quite nice opportunities coming along as well. So, you know, he is hoping that we will be doing more with it. Um okay. I think um we've kind of got to a natural conclusion with that one. It's certainly been good for me to find out a bit more about, you know, your backstory and, and, um, I think what we'll do is we'll, we'll talk to other members of the team over the coming weeks and throw some more podcasts in. Um, it might also help with people who are thinking about a career in marketing as well in digital marketing, and about understanding how people got to where they are, you know, the journey that they came on. And it's not always about doing a very specific, focused marketing type degree. No, you certainly didn't.

I don't know many people like who, uh, personally, I don't know many people in marketing who set out to be in marketing. Everybody just kind of ends up here. Somehow you end up kind of drawn in. Um, but yeah, everybody has like history or, you know, journalism or English or whatever degrees that they are, you know, computer science or whatever. Um, very rarely do people kind of go straight for marketing all the way through. And I think, yeah, I think if anything, I guess if, if anybody wanted to take any lesson from my story, it's like, just don't be afraid to try things until you find what's right for you. Because a, it's really obvious when it is right. And B, it's really useful to be able to look back and say, well, I know I didn't like these things for this reason, so it's a waste of time.

Okay. No. Right. You've been listening to Digital Marketing From The Coalface, uh, with Dave and Alex from Red Evolution. If you've got any questions about digital marketing, you'd like us to podcast like us to do a show on a specific subject, go to redevolution.com and leave us a message. If you want to come on the show and talk about digital marketing. Any aspect of digital marketing or business growth for that matter, not just digital marketing. In the meantime, um, if we don't have another episode out before Christmas, then have a great Christmas and New Year and we'll be back, um, in January with more hopefully interesting subjects, uh, around, around digital marketing to discuss. And other than that, it's from me.

Goodbye from me as well. You look like you want me to say something different.

Have you stopped talking yet?

Merry Christmas.