Don't Start A Website Redevelopment Project Until You've Listened To This – Episode 73

I always feel that with visual or creative stuff, people always kind of have the same approach as with modern art, which is like, you look at it and like, oh, I could have done that.

Yeah. Yeah. "Could have done that myself." Yeah.

But you didn't.

So do you think that's a sign of a good design that if a non-designer can look at it and say, I could have done that?

It's a tricky question. Personally, I think might not be because you want something to say. Oh, I never thought of that. Or oh, that's quite different. That's nice. Mhm. Think is the feeling like when I get like, oh, I couldn't do that. I was so angry that I didn't. It's when it's a good time.

Okay. Welcome back. Welcome back to Digital Marketing From The Coalface. This week there's four of us. So this is going to be fun, isn't it?

We'll have to be very organised.

So we've got we've got me, Dave, Alex, Julie. And for the first time, and partly because we need it and partly because she's heading back to San Diego next week. Deanna.

Hello.

There you go.

Yay!

Excellent. Uh, the subject today, which we're going to muse over, is around website redevelopment projects as opposed to website projects. There are plenty of overlaps. I think it's fair to say, but, um, there's some specifics around website redevelopment that we're going to investigate, which is one of the reasons we've got Deanna involved because Deanna's one of those creative types, aren't you?

He likes to sit in a quiet corner. Yes.

And not be on podcasts.

She's also very modest. And she won't blow her own trumpet, but she is very good.

What are you speaking about. I'm amazing.

Yeah. Good. Well done.

She's getting it.

Strong start.

And this was this was prompted by me because we had an enquiry. We gave a proposal to a company, and they're kind of mulling that over and looking at the bigger picture. I think they've sort of panicked and thought, we need to do something quick to get rid of our current web presence, because it's rubbish. Um, so what we'll do is we'll take that entire website down and put a one page holding website in place, like a landing page, which, which is on message and, and everything about that page will be relevant to who we are now, whereas the current website doesn't really tell the good, tell a good story. It's not telling the world who they are and how they've evolved. Um, and that sort of made me realise that people think that, you know, from a, from a point of view of, um, survival online, if you like that, that might be a good, good way forward. Um, Alex, tell us why that isn't a good way forward.

A terrible way forward. No, I mean, I think there is, like, a kind of a case to be made for it. But I think certainly from my perspective, the kind of worrying thing about that would be that you're going to take down a website that's been there and been performing well for years, potentially. That has a lot of entrenched rankings, that has a lot of authority, which is something we talk about on here a lot. Um, and you're going to replace it with what, one page, which Google's going to see and think, well, this is useless.

Google's also not going to realise that it's kind of the same thing because it's completely new.

So talk into the microphone, Julia.

It's a podcast. You're not just in the office gassing though.

Oh, really? Yeah. It's it's not gonna really make a connection with the new one between the new one, the old one. It's not going to remember anything if you take it down.

Well, am I right in thinking, though, that the actual intention of the, the client potential client that you're talking about there was to just use the same domain? Right. They were going to literally ditch their old website and put the new one on the old domain. Yeah. So you'd go from having kind of two hundred plus pages of content, having one page of content, which.

Yeah, that's.

It from a marketing perspective is a really, really bad idea.

Yeah. I mean, Google will only kind of remember the old stuff for a very short time, and then it'll just go, okay, you only have one page now and you're just going to completely lose any benefit, even if the old stuff isn't particularly relevant to what you do now. It still has value in terms of, you know, ranking and existing online, and you're just basically destroying your entire digital footprint, aren't you?

From a marketing perspective, it might be a fantastic idea. Elaborate because if your website is basically telling the world you're one thing and you've now turned into something else, then the website is you playing with the wedding ring again? No. No. Then the website is telling the wrong story. So it's actually, you know, anyone that finds you is going to look at it and go where it is a disaster in, you know, maybe overstating it. No, it is a disaster is from an SEO point of view. Yeah. Not a marketing point of view from an SEO point of view, you are basically going to destroy your rankings, lose traffic, lose the domain strength that you've got. From a marketing point of view, it might be genius if you're basically telling people, go and look at our website, you're all over LinkedIn, you're buying traffic, you're networking and telling people how great you are and what you do. And they go, oh, I'll go and check you out. They go to the one page which tells the right story. That's going to then maybe convert into a gig. So it's a complicated situation.

Yeah. Also SEO is part of marketing. So it's like from, from your, from maybe from a brand or from a yeah, from a outreach sort of perspective. But you can't say from a marketing perspective because SEO is part of your marketing. So for, for some angles it might work, but from other angles, it's not going to work.

I'm not sure. I'm one hundred percent convinced that anybody would find a one page website super convincing nowadays either. Like, I feel like if you were at a networking event or you were on LinkedIn or whatever, and you're saying to people, go and look at my website and what they land on is like a one page brochure. Are they going to be convinced by that, or are they going to be like, where's the rest of the.

I think we've seen I think we've seen that before. You know, people that people click on maybe an advert or a post or something and go to some sort of like one page landing page and they get so far and then then they want to know, okay, who are these people? What else do they do? How long have they been around? Are they the real deal.

You've just got.

And it isn't there. The backup isn't there. So yeah, you can only do so much. I think certain products, you know, kind of commodities or just sort of, you know, cheap sort of consumer goods. You can sell off a one page site because it doesn't matter. You know, you spend your forty quid or whatever and that's fine. If it's no good, it's, it's not a big deal. But for, for a bigger company, if it's something you're kind of committing a lot of money into, and if it's a business to business thing, then one, pagers just aren't enough to convince people to spend a vast amount of money.

Although we use one pages with paid search and they work.

That's true, I think. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you can get it to work. I think it's very like Julie was saying though, it's very kind of product or service dependent, right? You're not going to sell somebody on like a, I don't know, a three grand a month marketing retainer.

Or.

Legal services, for example, with a single page, you're going to need more. But I suppose.

I think it's, I think it depends how you what story you tell, if you tell a good story on that page, and that page is on message, on brand and everything else, I, I, I think it might be more powerful in terms of creating business for you than a website which is now completely off brand looks dated and tells, well, basically shows the world that, you know, you're kind of still.

Doing something completely different.

Yeah, I still think it's nineteen ninety six.

Yeah. That doesn't help either. No.

Yeah. I think, yeah, I think it's less negative than that isn't it.

Yeah. So what are the, what what are some approaches talking about the redevelopment stuff. And we'll be coming on to design and everything else shortly, and I know Diane is eager to contribute. Is that right, Deanna?

Just upping the tension for us. Likely you'll be on soon now.

Deanna.

Talk now.

Um, right. So so what what how can we approach this? Because it is a tricky one. If you've got a website that's got domain strength. We've spoken about this before. So if a website has got authority, then it becomes it's easier when you're putting new content in for that website to gain rankings because the website domain.

You know, it's already nice and strong.

It's got nice. He's strong. So what can we do? In the case of we won't say who this company are, but what can, what, what can we do in their case that will mean that we can give them this new story, this new brand look, feel, etc., without just getting rid of the other two hundred pages.

Well, I guess the first and most obvious solution that I can see is leave the old website in place. It's there, it's got entrenched rankings, it's doing well. It's got lots of content on it. Leave it in place. Set yourself up a little brochure, website, you know, for all of your new contacts. I mean, we use things like Unbounce, um, platforms like that where you can literally just kind of host one page and start using that, give that URL out to people, direct them to that on LinkedIn or whatever, but just leave your old website alone until you're ready to actually kind of take all of those kind of things that you've implemented on your new microsite and move them onto your main website. Yeah, that's how I would approach it.

Anyone disagree with that? Julie.

I don't disagree with that. Um, I mean, it depends. It depends on budget. It depends how long you've got. It depends how bad the other one is. But I mean, you can basically, you know, start working through the old website based on like the pages that people visit most often, um, you know, look at the pages that get the most traffic and are most popular and work through one at a time and just change them, you could change the content so that it reflects what you do first. And then you could change the design or, you know, depending on how much.

We've got a two hundred page website and we want something else there within three or four weeks.

Then I'd probably go with Alex's approach in that case.

I mean, I guess the other way you could look at it is like, just change the homepage, right? I mean, that's like if ninety percent, as is often the case, especially with B2B websites where most of your traffic's branded, if most people are landing on your homepage, get the messaging right there, you know, put up nice new banners. Don't direct people to the old content, but you don't necessarily it doesn't matter. I think people get very tied up with like, oh, I've got this page on my website that says I do something I don't do anymore. And it's like, that's fine. Just don't, don't point people towards it. You know what I mean?

Yeah, you could, but that's what I'm saying. It's like, find the pages that get visited most often and sort them out and maybe just take the other ones off the menu so that they're less visible. Um, unless people kind of come across them by mistake, but, um, you know, just make sure people find the pages that have been updated in the first instance and then work through them.

Okay. So if we if we go down the route that Alex suggests where we find a new domain, and I would say where this company are concerned, their current domain name is a bit rubbish. It's like if they were called Acme engineering, it's Acme hyphen limited dot com.

Oh, sure.

Okay. So it's not really very helpful.

A bit of a bit of a rubbish domain anyway. So if we're in that situation, what we're saying is that we can leave that website in place, maybe put some sort of call to action on that website. So anyone finding it can be directed to say that we're going through a rebranding process. You can find our new brand, our new messaging or whatever. However you word it here. You then build a minimum viable product, five to ten page website somewhere else on a new domain. And then over a period of time, you migrate all the content, get rid of the content you don't need, but you will then finish up with the new website with maybe it's also got a couple hundred pages or one hundred and fifty pages or whatever. And then what can you do?

Well, if you redirect all the old pages to the new pages, then you can take down the old website, but you have to redirect them because otherwise you'll, you'll lose any benefit that you're getting in search.

So if we do a redirect and we do it properly using Google Search Console, what is likely to happen to the new domain?

Well, it'll benefit from all the the Google juice that the old one had, Google juice.

Well I know. Yeah. I mean, it's how it's referred to isn't it. Link juice. But it's just such a funny phrase.

It is. I know, but yeah. Yeah. Without, without going.

Into.

Too much technical detail, you you benefit. So all the all the every time Google thinks, oh, you know that that old page is the one that answers this question. It just points it at the new page instead. It knows the new page on the new website has replaced that old page that it used to send people to.

And if you use the Google Search Console, it will help you with that process. It shows you. It tells you what to do. It checks that you've done what it told you to do, and then it will actually do the redirecting for you. And, and basically then the old domain becomes, um, inaccessible because every time you try and go to it, you'll get redirected to the new domain.

Yes.

Then you will do all these things. Um, we've done it a few times haven't we. Have we ever, have we ever seen companies like not recover. I don't think we have. It always works doesn't it. Yeah.

I think sometimes it can take a little bit of time for people. Yeah. I think people that. Yeah. I remember one very classic case on a gig that I worked on where somebody tried to get us to sign a contract that said they would absolutely not lose any Google rankings at any point. And that's not going to happen, right? You're going to dip for a little bit when you switch to the new domain, and it'll take Google time to kind of crawl everything and realise that everything's still the same. But yeah.

Okay. Putting Diana on the spot, um.

Continue.

Do you recognise any fundamental differences between quantum physics and. No. Do you recognise any fundamental differences between, um, working with a business who are established, whose brand and visual representations of the brand, etc. are tired and a business that is brand new, someone wants to start a new business and, and they come to you looking for creative inspiration and branding, etc..

Yeah. Can never do it. Repeat the question please.

Right. So when, when we get gigs, sometimes we get established businesses whose brand has become tired and the whole visual representation of their organisation is tired. And sometimes we get businesses who are brand spanking new. So they've got they haven't got a brand, they haven't got logos. They ain't got any of that stuff. Are there any fundamental differences between established businesses that want to refresh, bring a bring an organisation back to life from a branding point of view or brand new businesses who've got nothing is starting with a blank sheet of paper. Are you in or are in both instances? Are you starting with a blank piece of paper?

Um, depends how established the brand in itself. Like Mary, they are to it. So they can have a brand, they can want a facelift. Well, I call it a facelift, which is just like updating the font or something. But don't do a massive change to the like icon or the most significant element of the logo, because then you will lose that kind of heritage history that the brand already has.

Mhm.

So that's more limited. And you just kind of have to work with what you have. Then you can do like a branding refresh. Hello. I'm sorry. I'm gonna start saying it in Spanish now. Um, refresh. There we go.

Very good.

Uh. That is. Yeah. Like, you can start from scratch. You can have one or two little homage homages. Homage homages to the old brand if you want to keep that kind of momentum going. But you start from scratch, basically because it's dated. So the problem I think sometimes is like when people realise their brand is dated, they kind of need to act at that point. Sometimes they just try to make it work and it just keeps getting worse and worse and worse, and it becomes more difficult to do anything with it because it's just dated.

Yeah.

Um, and could you then finish up with, say, if we pick on because it's what we do, a website, you could have a fantastic new website that actually is being held back by a dreadful logo.

Yes.

Oh, we've.

Seen, I mean, part of my job, I like to say that it's like I can make anything that looks horrible look pretty, but sometimes the challenge is a bit, um.

So do you think generally speaking, then when people are going for a brand refresh is better just to say like, tear it all up and start again? Like, is that generally the most.

It depends on why are they doing the brand refresh? Like it's you have to think of what's behind it. So if it's just like, oh, we just our new CEO didn't like it and we need a new one. And it's just like, okay. Or if it's just like we now realise this is a problem and want to move forward. And it's that kind of dictates the approach you're taking. Yeah. I mean, from my point of view, I like it when it's like, we have no idea. You, you come up with it or you help it because then I have free range and.

Yeah.

It's fun.

Yeah.

Is it easier to start from scratch in a brand new business, or is it or is it quite nice having a bit of like, okay, we want to retain a bit of the old feel and the bit of the heritage, But is that quite tricky to sort of retain something from the old one, but give them something completely new at the same time?

It can be tricky. It depends, because everybody will have a different definition of what retain a little bit of the old brand will be. For some people it's like, oh, keep a color for some people will be like, keep a font. And from the font to the color, there's a massive amount of different stuff that can be done.

Yeah.

Okay. Here's a scenario. Um, I've got a very successful business and its logo was basically bodged together clip art. But my, but my wife did it and I'm really attached to it. I know that like the website's awful. I want you to redesign the website. I want you to help take us forward. But I'm ring fencing the logo. You cannot touch that logo even though it was, you know, basically a clip art job that my wife did fifteen years ago. And how are you approaching speaking to that customer?

I would be like, can I speak to your wife, please? We literally have a conversation with her and see what can happen.

I mean, I'm making fun of the situation, but I think over the years, we've been in situations where people are utterly wedded to something that is completely dreadful and not fit for purpose.

You do tend to find that you do them a really nice website and, and the logo's just sitting there looking really, really out of place on it.

Yeah. Mhm.

And I know that that upsets Diana a lot.

I mean. Yeah. Because it's so I don't know how to explain it.

Well, what about some big brands, some well-known brands? I mean, as a as a student of design and branding and everything else, is it the case that big, very powerful, successful brands have continuously evolved their brand or have they said, no, this this is like we this was from nineteen forty. It still works today in twenty twenty two. And we're sticking with it. And what have they done?

There's a bit of both. There was a trend not long ago where all of the companies just started removing like stylising better all of the logos. McDonald's did it. I can only think of it.

It didn't. They.

They all like all of a sudden all the fonts were sensitive. And that's like, that was a trend. And everybody was doing it. They kind of reduced the amount of colors in the color palette as well. And then everything kind of started looking more kind of flat. And now the trend has reverted. Everybody is using radiant shadows. And because of the apps and everything, sorry, I yeah, I need time to figure my what I want to say.

Yeah, it's fine. I mean, if you think of BP, for example, BP, huge organisation, I mean, their, their branding has changed completely over a period of the last, say thirty years from that kind of almost like a shield with BP.

Written in it. It's now that flower.

Thing, a flowery thing. And, and that, you know, they've, they've kind of.

It's, but it's, but they've done that very gradually. So you never, you never look at it and go, oh, is that BP? I don't recognise it. They've done it by stealth.

Yeah.

What about, like, Coca Cola, for example? Is there is there brand representation logo? Has that changed much over the years?

It has changed a little bit, but not much. I think what they did was instead of they started using the little coke bottle at some point for like smaller appliances, no applications. Sorry, appliance is a different thing. But if you think of things like Nike and Adidas, the logos are fundamentally geometrical and black.

Yeah. And they work on anything.

They can work on anything. A good logo or a good brand representation has to work on anything. So you have to have the simplest version of it. Yeah. Kind of standing out. And then you can work around that. That's why I always try and give them like people are like, this is just like a black icon. It's like, no, that you have no idea how important this is for your brand.

Yeah.

Yeah. If you like. And if the simplest like aspect of it works, Then we can build upon that. Where if you did a massive thing that has a nice separate colors and things that is more difficult to like work with, and you.

Do see it.

Yeah, it's not gonna work on a, on a tiny little like bit of a website or the little icon at the top of the screen. It's not going to work in a footer if it's reversed out or anything. It. Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. It has to work in a tiny little simple version.

It's easier to build on that and build a brand around that than to have something.

But it's really hard to design something that works at that level. That's why I like Nike and people like that. You know, that really classic, really recognisable, really, really simple.

They paid through the nose for that. Nike cost them about thirty dollars.

Oh that's right. That's that's that story, isn't it?

I don't know if it's true or apocryphal, but they apparently paid a freelancer about thirty bucks to design.

I thought it was free. The Nike one that's. Yeah.

I thought it was Nike. Sorry.

Yeah.

Nike. Nike. No idea. Okay. Um, so I think when it comes to website redevelopment or website design, I think it's fair to say that design is a bit of a mystery to a lot of people. Um, but they all know what it should cost.

And they all know, they all know what it should look like once they see what.

They certainly know what they certainly know what it should.

Look like, or they also know what it shouldn't look like. So you can give them the they have no idea what they want, but when you give them it, they know. It's not that.

I always feel that with visual or creative stuff, people always kind of have the same approach as with modern art, which is like, you look at it and it's like, oh, I could have done that.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. But you didn't. So this is why you didn't.

And actually you couldn't have.

So do you think that's a sign of a good design that if a non-designer can look at it and say, I could have done that? Do you think that's actually. Maybe Somehow a sign that a design is good.

I am not sure because, well, I'm just thinking of the modern art that I said, that times that I thought to myself I could have done that. And some once was just like a sock on a stool. And I was just like, why? Why is this in a museum?

It's a, it's a, it's a red line on a piece of white paper. Yes. It's like, yeah, you could have done it, but you didn't think of it. And they thought of it first.

Yeah. So it's a tricky question. I don't personally, I think might not be because you want something to see, something to say, oh I never thought of that. Or oh that's quite different. That's nice.

Mhm.

Isn't it like um a bit like music though. There's a famous song, horse With No Name, is it by America, horse with No Name.

Yeah, it's got.

two chords in.

It. Mhm.

Two chords. The first thing I learned to play when I. Because I kind of don't play guitar, but I can strum a few chords. And I think when the, the guitarists in the band I was in because I'm a drummer was saying, oh, we'll give you two chords. You can learn that and it's like an entire song. You can play the whole song with these two chords. And so because it's only got two chords in, is it rubbish? Well, I don't know. It went to number one, I think it was certainly in the hit parade back in the seventies. Um, simplicity is often misunderstood, maybe.

Underrated.

Underrated.

The feeling like when I get like, oh, I couldn't do that. I'm so angry that I didn't. It's when it's a good design.

Yeah, yeah. Got you. Yeah. So, you know, Digital Marketing From The Coalface is all about helping people understand and get a, get a better handle on all things digital marketing. Um, it's kind of us sort of baring our soul and telling the world what it's like in an agency. Um, the frustration, I imagine when it comes to design is going back to what you just said about people thinking, oh, I could have done that, but give people some idea about what goes into. Well, you can pick either creating the visual representation of the brand are quite often referred to as a logo, which a lot of people think is a brand, but it's a visual representation of a brand, in my view. So the development of a logo. So Acme Engineering have come along and they do, um, something to do with well, services, wireline services for the oil industry. Um, there are brand new spin off business and they've come to us because they want branding and logos and things. Where does the creative brain start with something like that. And we'll all just go and get some coffee now because this is going to take forever isn't it? Yeah.

So you're saying they come to us, they want some logos and pretty thing. So I think it starts with a conversation with them. First of all, why they want the logos and things and what do they think the pretty things are and what use they're going to have for them. And then after we have a conversation or you have a conversation, I read the conversation, we gather all these questions where who is this for? What's what do you want this to do? And then it starts kind of you start building like not a person or, but you start building on that to try and capture it visually.

It's not what you seem to be showing me is that it's very difficult to put into words the process that you go through in order to start creating something visual, to show people.

It's not just what's in my head. Yeah.

It's not just, uh, right. I'll just draw a picture. The picture has, like you say, represent the brand. The brand is who they are, what they're all about, how they feel, how they react, um, what people think of them. You've got to somehow capture all that, understand all that, all that sort of personality of the business and then turn it into a very, very simple drawing.

It's not a drawing.

It's also not just one, is it? Because I've seen what gets sent across to clients and it's sometimes like Twelve or thirteen different logos, all of which could be, you know, fine. You know, so it's interesting because I guess you've got to do that whole process like multiple times, right?

Yeah. So you come up with the options and then people as well sometimes don't just again, because I usually just start with the simplest version. They're like, what? Like, okay. And I was like, yes, but the you see an icon, but the font we pair the icon with will give you a different personality as well. You can be friendly, you can be corporate. It really just depends all this. I go through a process of selecting the fonts and then present them to the option. And then most of the times I get back. It's like I don't like the font.

It's like I don't like the color. And you're like, that's not, that's.

Not what we're here. That's not what we're doing at this moment in time.

We, um, a number of years ago had a potential customer. Uh, well, yeah. Customer potential customer in, uh, down in London. Um, I won't give his surname, but he was called Barry and and Rob did some design work and we shared it with Barry. And he basically he was saying he didn't like the designs, which is fair enough.

Is it?

Yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. But his comment was, uh, I could have done that on the back of a fag packet and it would have taken me five minutes basically. I mean, at that point, Rob had to leave his computer and go for a walk for half an hour to calm down, because he was absolutely fuming. It's the only instance. He was upset. That's the only instance I can think of, where somebody was point blank, rude about the design work that had been done. But he was a clear example of the the kind of person who, as we've just been saying, looks at something and says, I could have done that. It would have only taken me five minutes. And as you rightly said, yeah, but you didn't.

Yeah.

Um, I'm trying to think where I'm going with this. It's like what I'm trying to get at is that process you just mentioned of gathering information, coming up with some concepts, putting those concepts down onto something, you know, piece of paper or digital or whatever. I mean, designers work in different ways, I think. I think Rob, for example, likes to scribble on pencil and paper. You kind of like to play around on your iPad, maybe, I don't know. Um, how long might it take for, for this? Um, you know, Acme, Acme Engineering, well, services wireline company I just mentioned, you know, from the point of view of like the very first, um, exposure, you get to the requirement to having something that you're happy and comfortable to show the client.

It's a tricky one because.

I know it's a tricky one. That's why I asked it pass.

No. Um, so it really depends sometimes like you can get a great idea and it's just like you just develop that great idea for me. Usually I get many great ideas. No, um, I get like I start developing something. And then while I'm doing, I was like, oh, but what if this was like that? And then so I start to develop on top of that. That's why people get a lot of options. But I can have a million great ideas present them all, and if the client doesn't like it, we can go on a never ending circle.

Mhm.

And so yeah, I don't know how long it would take. And then if the client listens, not that I'm always right, but like, this is what we have to say. And the reasons are behind this, even though there might not be entirely sure about it, but believe that we know how to do our jobs, then it's a much easier process and it can take less than that. But if you ask me, how long does it take for a great idea to come? It can be like a couple of hours for me to read the information, or it can be, I will say more a day because I don't know why they say the greatest ideas come in the shower and I can like absolutely back that. Like it's usually I go back and it's like when I'm not actually trying to think too much about it. It's just like pops in the next day. I'm like, okay, right. Let's go.

Mhm. Mhm. So, um, I had a question there. Just let me try and remember what it was. Um, so if you come up with a great idea, get that down on paper or digital or some digital format, and the client loves it and the whole thing took you two hours. What's it worth?

A lot.

Yeah, it's probably worth more than if it took three weeks.

It's not the two hours that I spend on it that I never spent two hours. I wish I could be that type of, but again, people seem to forget that that is going to be the visual representation of their whole brand and something they will be using over and over and over again. So that to me, it's like, not just, oh, it's worth nothing or it's worth very little. It's like one of the most important aspects of the business.

Mhm. Yeah.

Also, only even if it took you two hours, it only took you two hours because you've done this before and you know what you're doing. And you, you know, you have that creative brain and you have trained your creative brain to do this. So it's never really two hours. It's the two hours on top of, you know, your training. It's like an experience.

When we come up with a great message for a client with a great, with some great messaging, uh, I've been in client meetings where we've been, you know, just, um, spitballing, brainstorming, whatever you want to call it. And I've said, oh, blah, blah, blah. And they've gone, oh, wow, love that. And they write it down. I, we don't get paid for that. I know it's a great idea. Yeah. And it turns out to be the main strap that they use for the business. And it absolutely works. And we don't get paid, paid at all for doing it. But at the same time.

We and said, right, we'll think about it and brainstorm it and workshop it, and we'll take two weeks and we'll charge you ten million pounds. Then they'd have still got the same strap line.

Because of the sort of elastic nature of creating a visual representations of brands and designs and things. We tend to put fixed prices on them. And if it takes us a month, then we're on the losing end of that. And if it takes us two hours, then we're on the winning end of that. I think that usually it's it takes something somewhere in between, doesn't it?

Because the outcomes are the same. Yeah. The deliverable, if you like, is the same. The thing that the client received and they, they get their, their visual sort of logo and corporate identity and the colour schemes and the fonts. And they get, they get the same thing regardless of how long it took us. So the value to them is the same. Yeah. Um, yeah. And I think if, if we sort of have some sort of sort of creative block and it takes us forever, or if we have just a sort of genius moment and it takes five minutes, I don't think that that matters one way or the other, because it is the it's the the result that matters.

I think most people in the design creative industries would agree with you, and a lot of people outside the design and creative industries would totally disagree. Yes. If it only took you two hours, then I'm just going to pay you one hundred quid an hour, and I want to pay you two hundred quid for my new logo, and that's it. Don't you.

Think? Yeah. It's one of those really frustrating things. I mean, I think Straplines especially are that classic example of what you were talking about earlier, about how sometimes, you know, the simple thing is the most effective thing, right? It's like the I'm loving it from McDonald's or there's like, um, what is Adidas slogan? I've been trying.

To Nikes just do it.

Just do it. And it's like, oh, that seems really simple. Anyone could come up with that. It's like, yeah, that's the whole point, man. Like if it sounded really laboured and clever and intelligent, it wouldn't be catchy. No one would remember it. So yeah, what you're paying somebody to do is kind of distil everything right down and come up with something really simple and really effective. Like it's meant to look really easy to grapple with. But people just don't get that, especially people who don't work in a kind of creative industry. And they're like, why am I paying somebody a million pounds for three words or whatever? And it's like, well, that's gonna kind of take your business forwards, isn't it? That's the whole point.

Yeah.

So when did you pay for this? How long have you been using this? It's like it's timeless.

Yeah.

Speaking about timeless, um, before we move on, um, because there's a lot to cover here, it's probably going to be one of the longer podcasts, I think.

Yeah. We haven't even touched on redevelopment yet. Well, we have.

A bit, we have a bit. I mean, I did ask like, what, what are the how is it different? But just before we move on, brands, logos that you love as a as a creative person.

No, no. Well, I, I hate being that designer, but um, Apple just because it's so simple, it works in everything and it's just, I kind of have a love hate relationship with Apple and I hate every designer that's just like, oh, Apple is the greatest logo. It's like. Mhm. But the ones I said before, I really like Adidas. That's why I put the example just because I think it works. It has worked.

Like when I was at the, um, British Ladies British Open, the Women's British Open at Muirfield, and we went into the shop, uh, on the golf course. And I think Adidas are quite heavily involved in women's golf, I think for some reason. But they had hats and they just had the three lines on them. And I was like, and I didn't know who that was. And I had to say, oh, it's Adidas.

It's exactly what Diana was saying earlier though, isn't it? It's like the logo has to work and it's like simplest ever incarnation, but you can.

Do the two lines are great because if you see three lines, you know exactly who it is.

For some reason, Adidas is not a brand I've interacted with. I don't own anything. Adidas, as far as I'm aware. I've got nothing against Adidas. Don't get me wrong. I think it's you know, it's a strong.

Blasting us right now. Like we're never going on that.

Well I got used to it as well.

It depends. Like what makes me love a logo when it's like, oh God, this is like, because I can see the work that was put into it or what it has done for the brand. But sometimes the designer in me as well is just like, I cannot go shopping because I go and just buy the pretty packaged things and don't really care what it is. Yeah, but there was a makeup brand as well that I always used to love, and it was just this benefit. The branding on it is just great. If you're a girl, there's no way you can not like that.

It is great.

Yeah, the actual logo is just simple. It's just black type. Yes, but the branding, the packages of the stuff.

Just the whole. The whole way they present it is lovely, isn't it?

Yeah.

Well, that's the same with Apple. You when you when you buy an Apple product, the way it's packaged, everything about it just oozes quality. You feel horrible throwing the box away.

I was in Chicago last week. Just dropped that in. But um.

The Apple Store kind of town.

The Apple store in Chicago looks like a MacBook. It is. I haven't got a picture of it. It is the most amazing building. It's got completely glass walls all the way around. And then the roof is just like a MacBook lid. Wow. It is genius. Absolutely genius.

Smart.

You've made me want to go to Chicago.

Just to see the Apple Store.

I did go in and buy a watch charger because I left mine at home, so.

I mean, an.

Excuse to go.

In. We're talking about Apple and clearly you love the Apple logo. What's not to like? Um, but it's just it's not they're a great example of what brand is because it's not just the logo, because that is not the brand. That's only a visual representation. Yeah. You walk into an Apple store and you feel a certain thing, don't you? You know, I think some people walk in and feel uncomfortable because everything in there is expensive and they kind of can't afford it. And that's, that's. But those those people who are wedded to the Apple brand, you walk into an Apple store and you kind of feel, I'm in, I'm in my place now. I have that product. I have that product, I use that product. I'm thinking of buying that product. And you just, it makes it's a bit like airport branding in airports make you spend money, don't they?

It's very consistent. The Apple brand.

Yeah.

The website and the shops and the products, you know.

And the pricing.

And the pricing. But yeah, there's a consistency there that you always know. You know that it's them and there's a quality and they're always they've done it really well and they never deviate.

The best kind of way of thinking about Apple is by looking at like Microsoft are often pitched as they're like key competitors, right? And Microsoft is not have not managed to do this with their brand at all. If you think of Apple compared to Microsoft, Apple evokes a kind of feeling and emotion, whether you like them or not. It does. Microsoft. Like what? What is that? What are the brand connotations like?

They're just really it's just yeah, it's not consistent. They've evolved.

They've come a long way. They've evolved. But yeah, I do agree. Um, okay. So I think inadvertently what we've shown, we've been talking about branding and for quite some time now, is it, it takes time and effort to come up with what can look like something that took no time and no effort. And that's the big challenge. And that's, I think what I think, you know, some bigger organisations And certainly get it. They've been on that journey before. They understand the value of brand and how it takes and the effort it takes to, to develop a brand and everything associated with the brand. I think when it comes to website redevelopment, there are sensitivities. We've already touched on this around the existing brand, and we've certainly worked with companies where we've renamed them. We've we've taken it to a whole new level. You know, they recognised and came to, you know, help with our help, I think, came to the conclusion that the way that their organisation, what their organisation is called, is not, is no longer fit for purpose because of the way their business has evolved. And, you know, for them, that is a scary thing to do. But done right, it can be transformatory.

Transformative.

Transformative.

Transformative. Yeah.

Yeah.

Just trying to make me feel better.

We all make mistakes on this podcast.

So I guess what I'm saying is if you're thinking about a a website redevelopment, that is a good time to think about rebranding. We did it. We used to be called Scott Webb, Scott Webb dot com, which we turned into a business directory, which I think we're going to repurpose quite soon. We were called Scott Webb dot com. We became Red evolution. And there are times when I've thought like, maybe we'll rebrand. Red evolution will turn us into something else. Maybe we'll just be re, you know, instead of red evolution because but, you know, we wouldn't be able to get our e dot com unfortunately religious education.

Yeah probably not.

Yeah. That's the connotation. It's on the outside of the office as you know. Um, should businesses, um, is, is the, when they're looking at our website redevelopment is, is that a naturally good time? Seems like an obvious question. Is that a naturally good time to think about? Well, you know, is the name of our business, right? Should we be looking at just a wholesale change of everything?

Are you looking at me?

Because you have to make these important decisions. Yeah, it's all on you.

Again, I keep saying this, but I will always ask, why are you doing the business development? If it's like if you already have an established brand about the logo, sorry, the branding or it's good, then yeah, we'll just why are you like, it's good that you're thinking about this, but like, if you already have, I don't know, the stationery or everything or just pamphlets or I don't know how much you have outside of the website that you want to move out of.

Yeah, we've certainly had instances where businesses.

And things then, yeah, if.

You started thinking about the website because you say, oh, well, I'm doing not it's not currently working, then yes, it's the perfect time.

Okay. But yeah, it's a case of considering all the implications of making that change just because it would look better on the website. Yeah, isn't necessarily a good enough reason because there might be lots and lots of knock on implications, but it might be that the old one is just so rubbish or so out of line with what they do now. Like that example we started with where it was. The company has changed and the website just isn't who they are anymore. It's possible. And that sort of situation that either the, the, the logo or the name of the company also isn't in line with what they do. So that would be the time to change it.

Yeah.

That's right. Is that fair?

Yeah. That's what I wanted to say. Um, but yeah, it was also I forgot what I was going to say, but also the. Yeah, I lost my train of thought. You got me going. No it's fine. Okay. Um.

Do you know what? I've made an executive decision here. We're sort of forty two, forty three minutes into this and we've covered the. And we might have a little bit more to say. We've covered like the creative aspects of of a redevelopment. I don't think it makes any sense to continue on with all the other things we wanted to talk about. I think we'll actually do that as a separate podcast.

Yeah, I think that makes sense.

Because looking, looking at, for example, um, content search engine optimisation, choosing the right CMS, uh, incorporating a CRM, all that kind of good stuff. I think we'll, we'll cover that separately because I think Diana would find it quite dull anyway, because she wouldn't contribute a huge amount to some of that stuff. Whereas you've contributed fantastically well on this bit about the redevelopment project from a creative point of view. So I think we'll maybe.

Yeah, we can cover it all off on a later episode.

Wrap this one up. Well, probably the next episode while we're hot to trot. Um, might even record it later on.

Should we, should we sort of summarise Diana's words of advice for a website redevelopment because we kind of veered off into new brands and things. But, um, you know what, what would we say to somebody who's doing a website redevelopment because their old website just totally doesn't reflect who they are anymore. What would be the sort of things they'd need to think about before they leapt off in one direction or another.

Go. Go into it with an open mind. Be bold. Diana, would you say patience. Patience.

Open mind. Patience.

Yeah.

What's it called? Like research as well? Yeah. Yeah. Like. Well, just go into an open mind. Is that don't be as well because it's like, oh, it's just a company that will like it's just a little website. Yeah, it will just be a little website now maybe, but in the future, yeah, it can be a huge thing. So it's just like be, I don't know what the word that I'm trying to say, but like.

Well, it's an interesting point though, actually that isn't it? Because I'm just thinking of a, of a gig at the moment where it's like somebody came to us and said, do a brand for us for this like one location, this one business. But like if it grows into a franchise, it ends up across the country. Like you've got to kind of design with the best case in mind.

I guess every project is not just, I just need a logo for this. So it can be a quick, it's like, no, because I'm thinking like, this will be a gigantic business. So it'll just be, I don't know the word I'm looking for, not like dream or something, but.

It'd be ambitious, I guess. Just think, think, think ahead, think, um, think down the line and, and don't limit yourself.

I suppose it has the potential to be a pivotal moment.

Yes.

Doesn't it? It does, doesn't it? It does. It does. If you've got a really strong brand, it could be as simple as it just needs things bringing up to date, you know, tech techniques and technologies have moved on. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the brand at all. It still works. It still is perfect for the organisation. But you just looking at a redevelopment project, and that's maybe what we'll talk about in the next podcast. If we're just talking about more of the mundane things, the less ethereal aspects of a website redevelopment project.

Yeah. Listen to your designers.

Yes, yes.

So yeah, think, think, be open minded. But also, yeah, consider what, why, why you're changing it. If how much you need to change it, the reasons for it, you know, are you, are you changing it because you're bored with it and are your customers bored with it? Um, are you changing Because it really, really needs to be. And, and are you or are you keeping things because you're like emotionally attached to them? Or are you keeping them because they actually make sense to your business? So I think it's all the sort of, you know, how far you want to move it on and, and sort of think that through and think about the reasons why you're changing or why you're not willing to change because.

Um, because we're emotional beings, aren't we? I mean, we get attached to inanimate objects. I mean, we get like, I mean, I've been attached to cars, you know, I've kept a car for years, cost me a fortune in repair bills. I can't bring myself to sell it. I've done so many wonderful things in that car. And you know what? You see it driving off with its next owner and five minutes later you've forgotten you ever owned it. It's. It's ridiculous how we get attached to things.

But I guess the opposite is also true. I mean, earlier Deanna raised an interesting point, which is that for a while, a lot of companies were going out there and they were like oversimplifying their logos, or it was like a trend to like, strip everything back and have three colors and to have no drop shadow and like, blah, blah, blah. And like, maybe there's an element of like, don't just jump on a trend here. Don't just be like everyone else is redesigning. So I've got to do it too. Or do it for the sake of it.

Think. Think about why you're doing it. Think about the customers rather than just like, you know, I'm bored with it or I don't like it or I love it. You know, it's, it's not about you. It's about how it represents who your business is to your customers. So I think you have to kind of go back to that and then, you know, make a try and make a more logical decision about, you know, how much you're keeping, how much you're not keeping, or if you're starting from scratch or what.

Okay. You've been listening to Digital Marketing From The Coalface with me, Dave, Julie, Alex and Diana. If you've got any questions, get in touch with us at red evolution dot com or from the coalface dot com. In the meantime, we'll come back with another podcast continuing this subject of website redevelopment, I think. Um, but that's all for now. Okay. Goodbye, everybody.

Goodbye, everybody.