Lauretta Ihonor, Content Strategist, Talks To Us About The Importance Of Plain English – Episode 74

To get away and be like, well, I don't have the time or money to implement this, or I'm doing nothing. I'm just going to carry on as I am. I think carrying on as you are is the worst thing you can do. You can start with the simplest thing, which is go back to what we said about plain English. Just simplify all the copy you write so that a ten year old would understand it if they read it. Yeah, you'll be miles ahead already.

It's almost like a kind of just an inertia to this sort of stuff. Like you have to start somewhere. And for some people, it's just so overwhelming. And I completely get that. As soon as you do something like decide, okay, from now on, I'm just going to speak in plain English. I'm going to make it really accessible. And as soon as you see that people are kind of interacting with your content more, enjoying it more, sharing it more, then that gives you a little impetus to, to go and then make another change and another change and another change. Okay. Hello and welcome back to Digital Marketing From The Coalface. David is busy sunning himself in Wales at the moment, so I'm here with Lauretta, who is a content strategist normally in the health and wellness space. Um, and she's going to be talking to me today a little bit about plain English, um, and a little bit about content ideas. So I don't know if you want to introduce yourself. Lauretta. Um, a little elevator pitch.

Yeah. Okay, fine. I wasn't expecting this, but thank you. Alex. So yeah, as you said, I'm Lauretta, I talked about training. I got into journalism, left medicine after a couple of years, realising I didn't love it, went and retrained in journalism. And so I've spent more than a decade working magazine journalism, TV journalism, online journalism, and moved more into the digital health space and did a lot of work with startups. So people like healthily, people like Flo Health, and it's really heading up content teams coming up with content strategy, ideas and ways to stand out in a super saturated market, which we all know that the health space is.

I just think it'll be music to everyone's ears because, yeah, that's one of the, the most frequent things we hear is that people are really kind of struggling to stand out and, you know, kind of be heard in a, in a very kind of busy and crowded space. Yeah. One of the things that I really wanted to pick up on was I know that writing in the kind of health space, especially, and I know it's something that you're very kind of keen on, is this whole idea of writing in plain English, which is throwaway advice that we give out a lot on this channel, is that we say all the time, oh, just write in plain English, but that it means something quite specific, doesn't it? Especially for for your industry.

Yeah, exactly. I always say people always ask me why I went and retrained in journalism because they're like, oh, you know, you can write, so just write. And I'm really glad I did because when I did, that was when I just learned how to speak in really simple or write in really simple language. And by plain English, it's not dumbing it down and speaking to people like you would a five year old. It's using really simple language, like you would speak to a friend. So in journalism, they talk about the man in the pub thing, and that always stuck with me because I came from an academic background when I wanted to write, you know, you get more kudos if you use all the big language and the jargon. So I started doing that in journalism, and I remember my teachers being like, no, just say this to me like you would if I were chatting. And then I'd say blah, blah, blah. And they'd be like, perfect, just write that. So that always stuck with me. And for me, that's when I talk to people about plain English. That's one of the first things I say. So just stop and just tell me the idea now as we're speaking, and you'll just watch them transform from the jargon to just normal, everyday words that make sense.

Yeah. Because it's so do you think over time then, do you think you've kind of like trained that instinct out? Because it's something when I write, I still find the temptation to like, throw in a big word here or there, you know, like you say, to make yourself sound clever, to make the article sound smarter.

Yeah, I definitely have swung in the other direction. I think what's nice is I've kept my toes in a lot of. I know this is a proper phrase. Ponds so that sometimes I will still do technical writing and I know I put the jargon in. And then other times I'm doing something really consumer driven and I think just take the jargon out. I think the most important thing is to first have an avatar in a person like a, you know, customer persona in mind and write for that person and for people who don't because I've had, you know, if I've done freelance work before, someone will say, here's the brief, get on with it. I say, I need to know your customer persona. And they look at me like, we don't have one. I can't do this. And then we get into this thing where they're like, just, just write it. Our aim is to sell this a lot. And I'm, I say to him, no, I need to know who I'm speaking to. Because how I speak to a thirty year old cosmopolitan single woman from, um, London is very different to how I speak to a thirty year old woman with two children who lives in the Lake District. And like, it sounds like the same person, but it's not the same person, so I need that tiny, annoying level of detail. It's annoying to the client because they're like, just do the work, but make it what you know, effective. You need to know exactly who you are speaking to.

But I think that's yeah, because that's a really interesting point, isn't it? We're not when we talk about plain English, I think there's a risk of, you know, people assuming that it's all about accessibility. You know, it's just about making it so that everyone who reads your article can understand it or whatever. But I guess what we're touching on here is that it's actually making it more engaging as well, right?

Yeah. I think again, if we talk about the standard out in the crowded market, if you can speak in a way that someone reads it and they say, oh, that person's talking to me.

Mhm.

That's going to work for you. And if you think about your favorite websites, apps, magazines, there's a reason you gravitate towards them, right?

Aren't they?

Yeah, yeah. And they speak to you in a way that it just feels like they understand you.

Yeah. So it's an interesting point actually that about target personas, because that's something that like, I guess a lot of the people listening to this won't even have touched on. But you're right, it's about kind of going away and exploring, you know, who you're actually aiming at really, isn't it? And kind of digging down and.

Yeah, and just to pick up on that, because I worked with someone recently who was really adamant that they wanted to use the jobs to do model instead of, I don't know if you've come across this.

Yeah.

Yeah. Instead of personas. And I was like, no, no, no, I need for writing. I don't need the job to do. I need the persona because the language is going to be specific. And we were embroiled in this thing for a really long time. I remain firm. For me, it's a lot more effective if you know exactly who you're speaking to rather than why you're speaking to them. Because going back to the thirty year old from London, thirty year old from the Lake District, they could have the exact same job to be done. But the same kind of language is not going to land.

Yeah, they have completely different interests and different thresholds, and it's really interesting. So when it comes to writing in plain English, or even just, I guess, your approach to writing in general, any other kind of tips, any other things that you always do Or.

Firstly, keep it accessible. So we've talked. Maybe I haven't talked to you about it. I've talked to it about it ad nauseum to other people. It's been aware of people's, um, kind of literacy level. So I'm trying to remember the figure of top of my head, but I know in the US is it kind of a ninth grade level? It's basically kind of like nine to eleven year olds.

It's always way younger than you expect.

Yeah. People forget that. And that's something I do if I'm, you know, leading up a team and people are writing, I will irritate them because I'll be like an eleven year old doesn't know what standardised mean. Go and change that, you know, change that to something. So if you just keep that in mind that you actually need to think a little bit younger. And again, that's not dumbing it down. It's just simplifying it. I think that's so that's the first thing. Um, second thing we've talked about is meeting people where they're at. So knowing who, you know, who you're speaking to and then speaking to them in that, um, specific way. Um, other things, what was the question? I do this, I go off on a tangent.

No, it's absolutely fine. I'm just saying in general, you know, kind of when you're writing any of the things that you kind of always do or kind of hard and fast rules that you live by or.

Where you're getting the information from is a big one. For me, I think being in the health space, it's so easy for you to just sit down and make stuff up and that'll be that's the gap between doing more, I guess, lifestyle stuff. So I've worked with teams where, um, we've brought in writers and they've come from a very journalistic background and obviously journalism. There's a lot of opinions like you put your opinions in and it's fine, but if you're doing something that's more, the stakes are higher. And in health, they are. It's just having that ability to pick your sources really well and choose trustworthy sources. Don't pass off hearsay and opinion as facts. That's the other thing people do. This will do this. It's like, will it do that? Or do you think it will? Because you might want to put may can according to, you know, little words like that to just make it clear.

It's it's funny because as a little bit of background, I used to write for Lauretta for a while, and I very distinctly remember having articles handed back to me with things like will underlined.

Can't make promises for people. That's my big thing I do. Yeah, no, that's a big thing for me because people see stuff online and they take it as gospel. And I'm sure you've come across people who they are doing certain things and you say, where do you why are you doing that? I saw it online. Like where online, if you really dig into it, it's some random blog from someone who just made something up and you're like, don't make your life decisions based on sources that you have no clue about. This is not a good idea.

So it's really interesting though, isn't it? Because, I mean, this mainly applies to health because for people that don't know, it is a very highly regulated space, isn't it? If you especially with the accreditations like the Honcode accreditation, I know there are a few others where to get and hold these accreditations. They'll kind of constantly vet your content and make sure that you're not making stuff up. But it's interesting too, because we talk on this podcast a lot about trust and authority within any niche. And I think this is just like really good universal advice really, isn't it? It's like, if you're going to say stuff online about your industry, about a product, about a service, whatever it is, like just make sure that it's correct and verifiable, right? That you're not just kind of, yeah, taking hearsay and turning it into something. It's not because yeah, it's interesting too, because I think one of the things that we always say on this as well is that like the stuff you put out online, that is what kind of ultimately cements your reputation, right? That's what your reputation is formed by and of. So yeah, if you, if you are going to write something, just make sure you're using kind of reliable sources. And I think every industry really does have like in health, there are a few websites that you can always trust, right? You can kind of go to, I think everybody.

Has their equivalent of that. And yeah, you can always dig out there's research for every, every industry. So it's going, if you have to go to the dry research and look at it, go to your trade publications and spaces like that. And yeah, that'll be the safest option for you. Um, yeah.

Definitely. Definitely. So yeah, and as well, the other thing, I just wanted to come back on a strange tangent, I know, but we're talking about about accessibility before, one of the things I wanted to ask was the whole idea of writing for a specific grade or a specific kind of like age of literacy. Do you think that's mainly about kind of like you say, not using words like standardisation that people won't understand? Is it mainly around word choice that we're talking about there?

It's word choices also. Even just small things like sentence length. People forget that. I remember I loved the long sentence because you can tell from us speaking. I have run on thought, so I would just break out my n dash and add all my extra thoughts, and then put an end dash and then get back to where I was. And I thought that was okay. However, going back to just speaking to a normal person, it's really complicated to have multiple ideas in a sentence. So keeping sentences short one idea per sentence. Mhm. And even if you're going back to the online space using things like bullet pointed lists, you don't have to have great paragraphs explaining stuff because people's attention spans are getting shorter and shorter. Um, so it's good that they can just, you can pick out the salient points and just list stuff and people can just boom, boom, boom, that's what I need. And then they move on.

I also think that goes back to what you were saying before as well about kind of meeting people, you know, where they are in real life, giving them stuff that, you know, kind of they expect to see. And that resonates with them because when you're online reading, you do not want to kind of dig into a paragraph of text. Like you'd pick up a book and you'd think, fine, you know, I'm in that headspace. I'm going to read something really long. But when you're online and you just hit one of those articles, you're like, nah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. No, I think that's really good advice. It's really good advice. Do you think with all of this stuff, do you think it's easier to do? Because obviously, like when you're writing now, I'm assuming that kind of everything you produce kind of comes out like that, you know, kind of short sentences, simple language. Do you think it's easier to try and get into that headspace before you write, or do you think it's something that you can do mainly kind of in the edit, as it were?

I think it's always easier if you're the person writing. All editors will attest there's nothing worse than someone's like, we'll fix it in the edit. You're like, no, fix it at the start, please. It's a lot simpler. It's just easier to get into that habit. The only exception I say, is sometimes rules are made to be broken. As much as I just said, I won't give a tangential thought. Sometimes I will intentionally. Does that make sense? Again, it's knowing who you're writing for and it's again, about are you simple words. But sometimes you will throw in a large word intentionally. And as long as you know you're breaking that rule and you know why you're breaking it and you know your audience gets it. It's actually it works for that personalisation aspect where they're like, oh, this person gets me. And they know that, you know, I didn't need to know that side thought at this moment in time.

Yeah. It's like the complicated bit stands out now, right? So it's like, yeah, if you're going to break the rule, do it sparingly so that people actually notice you're doing it. Yeah, it's a really good idea, actually. It's a really good point.

Something I was going to also touch on was, um, SEO lan, but I don't know if we want to get into that.

Yeah. I mean, no.

It's especially kind of just again for me being in the health space, a big thing that I've seen in previous roles, um, and my current role has been people trying to stand out in the market. And so playing the game where instead of producing what people want, you start trying to game Google and you start, you know, this keyword is, it's popular, but our competitors aren't using it. So let's start making up content. You know, that doesn't. Yeah. Around that, but doesn't actually solve the problem the person is looking for. Um, readers are smart. They'll see through that and they may come to you, you know, through your number one position in Google and realise it's just drivel, like it's not what they want and they won't be back. And I think people have to remember that you kind of get one chance.

Oh, man. Yeah. Like, I can't tell you how much this resonates with me because it's something that I'm always telling people, right? It's like you can rank for a keyword, but should you? And it's like people are using these phrases because they want something, right? Nobody goes to Google for fun. Well, I mean, you know, whatever. Sometimes, but by and large, you use Google when you have a question. And if the content you are googling isn't answered by whatever you click on, like it's annoying. And you do remember, I think, I think you do have a, even if it's subconscious, a memory of the times that you've clicked on like better health and read something and you're like, well.

What the hell is this? You haven't answered my question. Going somewhere else. And that's when the good ones stand out. And that's I don't know about you, but I end up having go to sites and I've gotten those go to sites because I googled it and I was like, this is solid information. I did it the next time they came up again, I'm like, this is a good source. Um, then you just go source. Exactly. And that's how you have that loyal return. You don't have ridiculous bounce rates and things like that that end up, you know, you end up being penalised for Google- by Google for.

Yeah.

And you brought it on yourself by doing, you know, sneaky tactics that weren't so sneaky.

Yeah. Or just really obvious as well, because the one I love is like where the keywords are really awkward and somebody's like, you know, like written these weird sentences so they can cram the keyword incorrectly and you just look at it and you're like, that's not, I'm not, I'm not the target audience. A robot somewhere is a target audience. Exactly. Yeah. But it's interesting too, because what we're essentially talking about then is the fact that this, this whole idea of kind of like writing well, and writing simply and writing accessibly, it's not just about getting people to do something when they're on the page. It's actually about kind of building your brand. Then it's actually keeping people coming back over and over again.

Yeah, yeah. And that's the, that's the like sweet spot, isn't it? It's the holy grail at the moment because people, it's what I said about me remembering a website. We're doing that less and less because you just everyone goes to Google for everything. So you just. Yeah, to have that loyal clientele, you almost need to be independent of Google. And it's building that brand. It's building that trust whereby I now say, oh, if I want to go to a site for this kind of information, I know I'm going to go to this person. And I tell people that's the other thing. So then there's the word of mouth thing, where people start recommending you because you are just trusted for being the best in your field. So yeah, it's super important to dedicate time to that.

I think that's massively overlooked, isn't it? We tend to think certainly, I tend to think as a digital marketer about, you know, digital reach, how many people can I put my website in front of? The thing you don't think about is that people are then going to go off and talk. And if you impress them, that's kind of ten, twenty new people they could send for, you know, so yeah, it's yeah.

And then it's exponential because ten to twenty is obviously a drop in the ocean when we think about the millions online. But if those ten to twenty tell ten to twenty, they tell it's and that's how you have, you know, even this minuscule blogs that start off really tiny and then they blow up and it's because of people passing that information about. Um, so yeah, I would say don't overlook that.

It's one of the things I always find really interesting actually, because some of the most interesting kind of success stories online An online, a blog that started off, you know, just like a funny take on things or like a certain way of like kind of approaching issues or whatever. And then as they become known, they just kind of spiral out of control and suddenly, you know, they have millions of people reading them and you're like, well, why? But it's just like you say, they're just kind of being true to their audience and have a kind of yeah, a tone, which is actually something else I wanted to come in on. So this whole idea of kind of writing, accessibly, writing plain English, that obviously some people like to kind of frame that kind of oppositionally to the idea of having like a tone of voice, like they say like, right. That's, that's coming at the expense of your brand voice. But that's, that's not true either, really, is it?

No, because that's your tone of voice. Your brand voice is your personality. It's like us speaking today. We're both speaking English. We're both speaking English at the same level. We're two very different people with two very different personality and our intonations. And, you know, the way we structure our sentences. Yeah. That's different. That's your tone of voice.

Sure. It's interesting as well because yeah, it's all the kind of like the micro stuff, isn't it? Like you say, like the way the sentences are structured, the way that words are arranged, there's still plenty of freedom. And I think that's kind of links to another thing as well, which is another common complaint when I tell people, oh, write in plain English. And this is especially to, I guess, the lawyers and the architects and the doctors listening to this, that often people will tell me, oh, my audience expects me to use this really complicated language, and if I don't, they'll think I'm stupid and therefore they'll trust me less. But that's not, again, a really a valid objection, is it?

No. And this is where what I mentioned before comes in. When you do it intentionally, I can say a medical sentence, you know, if this hurts. Go and see a doctor. That's a straight sentence. If I'm talking to doctors, maybe instead of saying, if you have a blood clot on your lungs, go and see a doctor. I might say, if you have a pulmonary embolism, go and see your doctor. The majority of that sentence is still plain English. I've just added the technical word that I know that the other doctor will appreciate, which is pulmonary embolism. I didn't say at your nearest convenience, please rendezvous with your healthcare provider because that's just junk. It's completely unnecessary. And that's the stuff that people do. It's not the special language. It's the junk and the hyperbole that they put around it. And that's just silly.

Because I think it's a really interesting one, isn't it? Because that's a really good example. You see stuff like that, like please attend like a, you know, a physician's appointment at your earliest convenience. And, you know, it's just stuff like that where it's like overcomplicated language. Yeah, I do see that a lot on the internet, do I?

Yeah, yeah, I see it. Yeah, I see it everywhere. And I'm like, who wrote this? Who did it? I just stopped looking because it'll drive you mad.

Yeah.

And the other one is crazy punctuation. I just see it on like signs on the train and I'm like, who is their copywriter? Why? How did this get passed them?

There isn't one is the truth. The sad truth that we have to contend with, isn't it? Yeah. Because I think one of the things I find quite interesting, certainly when I was writing for you in the past, like I was saying is we actually did some plain English training, didn't we? And I think one of the things that's really interesting is that this is training that kind of goes to like governments. It goes to like local councils. It's not this isn't just advice for people trying to sell things online. This is just generally good advice for communicating, isn't it?

Exactly. And it goes back to what I said about knowing the literacy level, because people don't appreciate people's literacy levels, you know, and again, as I said, I think the average age, at least I know in the US, it's you're hitting that nine to ten year old. Um, Mark. And if you're speaking, you're using what people are looking at it, they're like, I don't know what you want me to do. I literally don't know what you want me to do. So I'm going to do nothing. We've all gotten those letters from different governmental departments. And you just look at it like.

What is this?

Like what? And then I have to go get a translator to translate the English that I already speak, because I don't know what they're talking about. And then, you know, people don't do what you want them to do because they, you weren't clear. So yeah, it applies to everybody.

My absolute favorite example of that happened to me quite recently actually. I got sent a letter, a letter from the local council, because we've just moved into this house not so long ago. And it said at the bottom of the letter, after a load of jargon, you do not need to do anything about the contents of this letter. And I was like, oh, thanks, and scrunched up and threw it in the bin. But yeah, all of this was just.

Sounds like there's HMRC letters. Yeah. That you get. Something has changed about something and something and something. I don't know what you want me to do. And then at the end it's like you don't do anything. Nothing. We're just telling you that something you don't know has changed.

Oh, dear. If only. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, isn't it? I guess what we're what we're working towards and what we'd love to see is an internet where people were just kind of like clear, direct said what they meant and it was easy to navigate really. But yeah, one day maybe.

Exactly. We live in hope. Yeah.

Um, so just going back to the whole kind of like, um, content and audience thing, then I guess another thing that a lot of people who are listening to this, um, struggle with quite a lot is this whole idea of kind of producing content that really resonates with your audience or that they're really kind of interested in. And I guess we've sort of touched on this because you're talking about the fact that your content has to kind of like answer the users questions, but do you, in your experience as a kind of content strategist, have you found kind of go two ways of coming up with ideas for interesting content or.

Speaking to whoever you're writing for?

Okay. Yeah.

That's number the amount of times I've sat and I'll, you know, I'll just focus on more recent roles in tech companies. And it's not pointing a finger at anyone. The amount of times you sit in a room with people who are not representative of the person you are talking to, and they say, I think they want to know this and they want to know it like this. And you think, what? Where did you pull that out from? You're not the same gender, age, ethnicity, literally nothing about you is the same as this person and you're deciding what they want. And then when the content doesn't work, they say, why is it not working? Google's penalising us. It's like, no, it's not. You're making up stuff and you haven't spoken to the person who you're making it up for.

Yeah, that's really interesting, actually, because it's never, I'll be honest with you, it's never really kind of clicked with me like that before, but I have also sat in that room before, like, you know, when you're talking to somebody and they're like, yeah, this is what my audience want. And you just think, oh, like, okay, like this person has a very strong idea. This person knows exactly what the audience wants. But yeah, so often that is just kind of made up, right?

Yeah, yeah. Unless you are the audience, you know, I've been in the fortunate situation in the past where I've run a business and I was my target person. So it was.

What do I want to read? Yeah.

It was yeah, it was easy. The content I made like resonated really. And again, it was one of those blog things that started and blew up and I was like, what's going on? And it was just because I was just writing to myself. And it turned out my people were like me. And so it, you know, what I was interested in, they were interested in. So in that aspect, it works. But I think if you are doing something that's very far removed from your personal needs and your experience, then step one is to go and speak to them, like have a little focus group, run some user testing, do something, just get in front of those people and just find out what they want.

Yeah. Because there's two things. Yeah. And the other thing I kind of caveat that with as well, because I'm thinking about a couple of examples where I know people who have started businesses when they were one type of person, and then over the years they have changed and they are now writing to the new version of themselves. You know, the older, wiser version. But the important thing is that your audience is, is probably different from you now as well, right? It's one of those things where just because you were once in that kind of perfect profile category, your needs and wants have changed, and you probably won't notice that or realise it really, will you?

Yeah. And again, that's why when you're speaking to people, you should do it regularly. Yeah. You know, small businesses, you're not going to be able to afford to be running focus groups every month, but at least once a year, get back in front of your audience and just check what because it's not just you and them changing the climate changes as well. So are people still in need of what they were in need of last year? You know, the last two years have been a really good example of people's priorities and things that are normal for us, like commuting to work. It's now abhorrent where like what? We're not commuting. I'm staying home. So just attitudes change and you need to stay on top of that.

I saw a really interesting article about that. It was like how to survive the commute to work when you're like, boss demands that you go back to work and I'm like, why don't you do it?

Exactly. That was life. That was called work. You went there and now we're like, how dare you call me to the office once a week?

But it is interesting, isn't it? Because I think I mean, personally, I think this might be one of the kind of biggest, most obvious kind of like business hacks really, isn't it? It's like, actually get members of your audience to sit in a room and just ask them things. Just be like, were you interested in this or not? And if they say, no, actually, we don't care about that. You've just saved yourself a ton of money and time, right? It's simple stuff.

Exactly. Yeah. But I mean, if you can't. Other things I advise people on, which has worked really well in the past is using the internet strategically. So going to places where people, where your people are and they're giving their opinions about what they want and don't want. So a big one for that is obviously Reddit because it can get so niche. Literally just go there and troll and see what people are moaning about. You know, go to subreddit that's relevant to your thing and see what people are moaning about and what they say they want and what they say. Everyone's doing badly. That's number one. And number two, I talk about I always love looking at reviews for your competitors. What are people? So people in the same space, what are they saying? Your competitors are doing badly because everyone's always so obsessed with copying the good. But if you know, you go on Amazon, you go on the Apple Store, people are leaving reviews like this person said like this. And instead they gave me this and I wished pay attention to that because that's the need. It's not just copying your competitor verbatim.

That's really interesting. I don't think I've ever. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Because you're right. People, when they're doing competitor analysis, it's always like, what are they nailing? And how can we copy them and how can we get ahead of what they're doing? And yeah, you're right, if you actually just keep your eyes out for what people are saying they're doing badly, then that's a niche, right? That's an opportunity for you to go and do the opposite.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah. There you go. I think it's really interesting because I think certainly in like the space I'm in, there's a temptation to try and answer everything with data, right? I think that's a really big trap. It's like, what do our audience care about? It's like, well, we can go on SEMrush and we can see what they search and like, we can go and like answer the public and we can look at like a mathematical breakdown of like, how many people ask each question and work out which one to prioritise. But actually a lot of the time, a, you don't know how good that data is, and B, you're just kind of getting away from the whole kind of human element, really.

Like I was gonna say, because the data misses the context. That's the big part of things. So yes, people are asking this question, but why? What do they really want? You know, when someone searches for, I don't know, um, cures for hair loss, it's like, what are they going? Like, what do they actually need? Do they need the cure or do they want to know why they're losing their hair? There's something going on there. And that data is not always going to tell you that as easily as asking the person, what do you want?

It's really interesting because that's a really good example, right? Because like, it's like, is that a question that people are asking because they've already lost their hair? Are they losing their hair? Is it they the wives of men who are losing their hair? Like, yeah.

There's so much behind it.

Yeah.

And those are all different customer segments and different user personas.

That you'd want to speak to in a different way. So yeah, really, until you actually kind of drill down and get people in a room and ask them questions, how can you kind of really know? Yeah, it's interesting as well. You mentioned user testing earlier. Is that that's something I know that you're also quite a big, a big proponent of.

Yeah, that's just because you don't know, you know, you don't know what other people want. And it's not just user testing. It's not just like focus groups where you're asking because again, people say a lot of stuff. And I think we've all experienced that. They say it and they don't mean it. Yes, I want this product. You develop the product. No, actually they don't use it. Why not? Because what I really Sometimes they don't know. But when you do kind of real life, real time user testing, when you're just putting things in front of people, nonverbal cues, you know, subconscious things that people do, that starts telling you a lot about what they really want. The face, you know, people will sit, especially if you bring them in a focus group and you're paying them, they will sit and they'll tell you all sorts of nonsense just to get to the end and get their money. If you start looking at micro things, you know the expression they, you know, yes, I love it. And they're grimacing, okay. They don't love it so much. Oh, you just pulled a face. Tell me more. That's the stuff you start digging into. And the easiest way to do that is to just give them whatever you're thinking of and watch their reactions to it.

Let them play. Yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it? There we go. Life. Life lessons to anybody trying to run a business online. I think because user testing one especially, it's one of those things where, like you mentioned earlier about bounce rates, right? With content. And I think that's a really good example of that, right. Because there's a temptation, again, if you're just looking at data analytics to say, oh, this article has a really high bounce rate, therefore it's not resonating with our audience. They don't care about that subject. We're never writing about it again. Whereas, you know, it could be that they were really put off by the picture at the top of the page, or that your headline gave them the wrong impression about what was actually going to be in the article. And you don't know any of that from looking at the kind of the the kind of headline stat of high bounce rate, you actually have to kind of drill a little bit in, don't you?

Yeah, definitely. And it's funny because I'm listening to everything we're saying and I'm feeling sorry for anyone who, who's, who's tuning in. Like, I just wanted some simple steps. Don't do this, don't do this, do this, do this, do this. But one thing I will say is kind of start where. Start with the simplest things, if that makes sense, because it can get overwhelming if you're given all of this stuff, we're saying to go away and be like, well, I don't have the time or money to implement this, or I'm doing nothing. I'm just going to carry on as I am. I think carrying on as you are is the worst thing you can do. You can start with the simplest thing, which is go back to what we said about plain English. Just simplify all the copy you write. Don't even worry about personas and all that. Just simplify the copy you write so that a ten year old would understand it if they read it.

Yeah.

You'll be miles ahead already.

Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Because it's almost like a kind of yeah, just an inertia to this sort of stuff. Like you have to start somewhere. And for some people it's just like so overwhelming. And I completely get that. I think like you say, as soon as you do something like decide, okay, from now on, I'm just going to speak in plain English. I'm going to make it really accessible. And as soon as you see that people are kind of interacting with your content more, enjoying it more, sharing it more, then that gives you a little impetus to, to go and then make another change and another change and another change. And you're right, you can't kind of bite off more than you can chew right at the beginning. But yeah, I think you will see good results once you do start doing some of this stuff.

Exactly. And it's cumulative. So as you said, you just you build on it.

So yeah, I guess for you, have you found especially online, have you found like specific types of content work really well for, you know, engaging people or do you find it is just very audience dependent really?

It is quite audience dependent. One thing I will say, though, in general, I go back to the short attention span thing. We are noticing more and more this need for digestible content, more white space, fewer giant paragraphs. Even if you look at, you know, um, newspapers that traditionally were broadsheet, so your guardians, independents, etc., there's more white space like they're playing around. You can still have your long form, you can have your really long, um, expose your opinion piece, but it's starting to just break that copy up because people can't deal with all of that in an online setting just thrown at them.

It's interesting, isn't it, as well, because I think like, I'm personally like, because yeah, like I always feel a little bit biased. I always think like when I hear, oh, people have a really short attention span, I'm like, well then people are stupid. And it serves them right. You know, that's my kind of like fundamental go to. And I think it's really interesting though, isn't it? Because it's like there's always a temptation to be a bit snobby about it and to be like, well, I'm going to produce really long content, but it's not. It's not even so much that people don't want to engage with this stuff. It's almost like you just can't, right? People's lives are just too busy nowadays. I think that's one of the things that people often forget about.

Yeah, yeah. And, and we're also, we're not saying make your content short, i.e. every article has to be one hundred words. We're just saying break it up so that they can handle it and they can consume it in bite sized chunks. They can skim. And that's the other thing we're spoilt for choice, apart from short attention spans. All of this is the internet age, essentially, isn't it? Really? There's an overwhelm of choice and everything is being delivered to us really quickly. So that's why we're not paying attention. So you don't want to make them work that hard, really. So give them the long piece, but just make it easy for them to consume.

Yeah, definitely. And I think that, I mean, even really simple things, right? Like just putting loads of images in sometimes helps so much. It's just like, just keep it simple.

Yeah. Subheadings again, just small things so they can go where they need. It's not a game. And that's the other SEO game. I think people will, you know, let me hide all my stuff at the end and make them stay for, well, you're only really hurting yourself when you do that. Signposts let them know so they can go get what they need and go. They'll appreciate that more.

One of the really small but really powerful things like that, I think is just putting like a contents at the top of long articles, like just like literally kind of like bullet points. This is what you'll find in this article, right? Because like when people have them, I think, oh, okay, this is going to answer the question I have like, that's fine. I can see that. Otherwise, it's like, am I going to invest ten minutes on this?

Yeah. And then make sure if you do your content that clicks through. That's my pet peeve at the moment when you click on it and it doesn't work, I'm like, these people are wasting my time. Why don't you pretend.

Like.

Now I have to scroll? Yeah.

It's funny, isn't it? Like, yeah, once upon a time, the whole idea of being able to read an article on your phone would have been magical. Now it's like, I can't get through this quickly enough. It's annoying. And then they tell us we've all got ADHD now? And you're like.

Interesting new world we're in.

Yeah. I mean, it is interesting. And I think it's especially like it's something we see because we work with a lot of B2B businesses, and we work with a lot of businesses that have been around for thirty, forty, fifty years. And in a way, I do really feel for a lot of people who are kind of like marketing in this climate now, who kind of started thirty, forty, fifty years ago because it's radically different now. Like these companies have got to find brand new ways of talking to people that they didn't even know existed before and, you know, produce content for them. And it is really it is really tricky, I think, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it can be demoralising more than anything else because it was working. You know, I think we've both seen those people where you're like, it was working fine. I have a loyal clientele and you're saying, well, things have changed. They're like, no. And they either dig their heels and they wonder why it's all going wrong or you, um, kind of roll with the punches, really. But there's a case of also making sure you get help, which I guess is where, you know, you and what your company does Comes in because there's nothing worse if you don't have that skill set you're operating on what, even five years ago was on the internet now two years ago. I mean, I side tangent got back on Instagram this week, and I used to run quite a successful account two years ago, and I'm watching all these videos and they're saying, yeah, what worked in two thousand and two, twenty twenty is really old. And I was just like, twenty twenty is old. So that's how quickly things are moving. You know, it's it's crazy.

Yeah, dude, Instagram is the worst for that, isn't it? Because it feels like people's expectations for what good content is like shift so radically. It's like, yeah, it's like, I remember once it was all about like making sure that you're kind of like home page, main page, whatever looked nice and all your pictures kind of gelled together and had nice synergy. And now it's like, oh no, you must be producing short video content. Exactly.

Exactly of this length. And it has to be this between this long, it can't be too long. It can't be too. You're just like, who is making this stuff up? Let's just go back to sharing our pictures calmly, everybody.

Oh, dear. No, I mean, it does change very quickly doesn't it? I think it's just about like, say, staying abreast of those changes and making sure that when you are doing things, you're always considering, you know, what does my audience expect now? What are they looking for? What do they really want? I'm just trying to think like, um, because you touched on something quite interesting then as well, which is when we're, when you're working with companies where, I don't know, I'm sure you'll have been in this situation before, like somebody's the head of marketing or whoever is really on board with what you're doing. But there are other kind of key stakeholders that are really kind of resistant or don't really believe in it. Do you think there are? Because I know a lot of the people that listen to this podcast will find themselves in exactly the same position where it's like going to the boss and being like, look, we need to do user testing on the site or, you know, I need more budget for content. Do you have any tips on kind of persuading people of the value of this stuff?

Or I think it really lies in tying it to whatever your company's key objective is. So if you've, you know, if they've said for the next half a year we need to make X amount of money, you always have to go and do your homework.

Yeah.

Where are people coming from? What are the channels for user acquisition, for example, that we're missing out on? Why are we missing out on them? Well, because we don't have a presence here, here and here, or we don't produce this type of content. And the research shows that this is the type of content they engage with. I think if you can always take numbers, numbers to the person, you know, the person in charge per se, and you can attach those numbers to the objective that they've said, this is what I care about. I care about customers, I care about revenue, whatever it is. And you can say, look, here it is. They can't really argue against it.

Yeah.

And people, I find people get really surprised, especially when you look at, you know, more again, in digital marketing area, things like social media, literally when you bring them down and they think, oh my God, am I missing out on this? You know, X number, I thought reach was a fake. Yeah, yeah. But if you look at reach and you draw that down to, you know, engage people. And then you look at that as people who've converted and this is the amount of money and suddenly their jaws drop, they're like, oh, I thought I was just the platform that everyone was posting stupid videos on.

So yeah, definitely. And I think the yeah, because I think the other thing, just picking up on that is going back to what we're talking about earlier with keywords and tools like Google Search Console and SEMrush. Um, that'll tell you kind of x many people a month search for this keyword. You know, if you, if you know that keyword is relevant and you know, you can answer that question, that is just kind of like money in the bag really, isn't it? It's like, ultimately, if you can go to your boss and say, look, six thousand people a month are asking for this, we have the answer. Let's, let's get that traffic. Really? Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

There we go. So yeah, I think we've been I think we've covered everything ever about journey.

Yes.

But um, hopefully provided some, some good and actionable tips on kind of writing accessibly and coming up with good ideas. um, anything else that you want to touch on before we finish or.

I don't think so. As you said, we've gone through a lot. I would I would love to give a summary, but I'm trying to remember trying to remember what we've said. We've said right. In plain English. We've said meet your audience where they're at. We've said, try and do some user testing or focus groups. And if you can't go online, go onto Reddit, go onto review sites and find out what people want.

I guess in a way, what we're sort of saying there as well is just like develop audience personas that are more than just like the typical marketing persona, right? It's like, don't just say women between the ages of forty and fifty say, you know, what are these people's hobbies? What are they interested in? What do they care about? What makes them tick? And then how can we kind of give them stuff that resonates with that? Um, yeah, I think that's everything from us. Um, if you do have any questions listening to this, or you do want to kind of ask anything about any of the topics we've covered, you know, how to reach us. Um, until next time.