Friday, 7 January 2022

What Is Hubspot? Here's A Plain English Hubspot Guide For Everybody

Dave & Alex Chatting

We love HubSpot™ but we're very much aware that although a lot of people have heard about it, there are still many, even seasoned marketing specialists, who don't really know what it is or what it does.

To help people understand how this amazing business growth platform can help accelerate digital marketing efforts our very own Alex and Dave did a podcast on the subject. You can either listen to the podcast using the embedded player below or you can simply find it using your preferred podcast player.

If you prefer reading to listening, we've added the complete unabridged transcript below.

someone explaining something

Dave: Today, we're going to talk about HubSpot. It's a great tool. If you believe that you can generate business, and grow your business using the website, email, et cetera. We'll start by saying that everything we do to attract new business, both for ourselves, and our customers online can be done effectively without HubSpot.

Alex: I don't think you need any paid tool to do the basic kind of write good content, publish good content, get everything out there, attract new customers. But I think the thing with HubSpot is that it makes all of those things a lot easier.

Dave: It's the way that everything's joined up.

Alex: And I think also the kind of power of it, is just in how granular the data you get is, so when somebody fills in a form on your website, it tells you what page they're on, when they filled in, what other pages they've looked at, how long they spent on your site, like you said, the connectedness is in being able to see the exact path that someone's taken.

Dave: Okay. Welcome back to the From The Coalface podcast. Today, I'm with Alex, who's here with me in the studio. So, I can't take the mickey quite like I normally do, because he's actually bigger than me, and he's within distance to actually hit me.

Alex: I would never.

Dave: So, I'll be kinder today, Alex. I promise. Today, we're going to talk about HubSpot. We're not going to talk about HubSpot in HubSpotize. We're not going to use their language.

Alex: Their wonderful, wonderful jargon.

Dave: That's right. What we're going to talk about is, the way that we've used it, and the way that we see our customers using it. I'll start up by saying that we do love it.

Alex: This isn't going to be a sales pitch. We probably...

Dave: It's not. No, it's definitely not. If anyone's ever spoken to the guys at HubSpot, they'll know all about the HubSpot sales pitch, it's a thing of beauty, I would say. But what we're going to do is just talk about it in very practical terms. This is after all the digital marketing From The Coalface podcast. So, From The Coalface, this is how we see, and use HubSpot. And we'll start by saying that, everything we do to attract new business, both for ourselves and our customers online, can be done, and can be done effectively without HubSpot.

Alex: Yeah. I don't think you need any paid tool to do the basic kind of good content, publish good content, get everything out there, attract new customers. But I think the thing with HubSpot is that it makes all of those things a lot easier, right? Quicker.

Dave: Yeah. I'd say so. It's the way that everything's joined up, I think. So, when somebody fills in a form on your website, that information goes straight into a common database, that's used both by the marketing platform, the CRM, customer relationship management platform, the what do they call it? We were talking about just before the service hub, the operations side of things as well. So, you've just got one version of the truth effectively.

Alex: And I think also the kind of power of it is just in how granular the data you get is. So, when somebody fills in a form on your website, it tells you what page they're on when they filled in, what other pages they've looked at, how long they spent on your site. And okay, fine, technically you can get a lot of that information using Google analytics say, or something like that, but it's in the kind of like you said, the connectedness it's in being able to see the exact path that someone's taken, I think it's most useful.

Dave: Well, let's start by outlining in very broad terms. What HubSpot actually is. Let's start with the marketing side of things. So, from a marketing perspective, you can either host your entire website, including your blog on the HubSpot platform, or you can choose to say, keep your website separate to HubSpot, and use HubSpot just for your blog for landing pages, to send people to if you're running paid search, for example. But let's just assume that you've gone all in on HubSpot.

Alex: Sure.

Dave: So, what you would do, is you would use it to number 1, build your website, okay, and it's effectively a bit like WordPress, or some of these other systems out there. It's a content management system that lets you manage the content of your website. Just completely stated the obvious there.

Alex: What does a content management system do? It's just content, who would've thought? But yeah, no, and it is good to be fair, isn't it? I mean, HubSpot's content management system is kind of state of the art. It's one of the better ones.

Dave: It is.

Alex: It's nice and easy to use. Certainly our designers never complain about designing templates for HubSpot at all. Do they? Diana?

Dave: No one again.

Alex: Cries silently in the background.

Dave: Okay. So effectively, if you have a marketing team, and you need marketing team to be able to add new content to your website, that might be a sales pitch, buy this from us. This is a great thing that we do. Or it might be a blog as in, here's our opinion on this particular subject, or it might be a one off landing page that you're going to send traffic to from a Google ads campaign, or something like that. What else? Anything else?

Alex: I think those are the main ones.

Dave: Page wise. That's probably it. This is a tool that lets you do all that, without any sort of geeky stuff at all.

Alex: Yeah, absolutely.

Dave: Anybody can log in and create new pages, edit pages, add to pages, just do whatever you want. And it really is a super slick tool.

Alex: Yeah. I mean, I'm not particularly tech savvy at all, as you know, that's not true. I think the first time I logged into HubSpot, I was honestly expecting it to be quite complicated. And I think it took me about three minutes to work out where everything went, how everything should look, it's dead simple is an understatement.

Dave: It is, that's right. And I would say that, there's a fantastic academy, a HubSpot academy where you can learn any aspect of the HubSpot system, plus you simply cannot sign up to use HubSpot without buying an onboarding package either with HubSpot or with an agency like us or other agencies or HubSpot agencies. So, you never get presented with the software and like, there you go, there it is, off you go. Good luck.

Alex: That sounds quite...

Dave: Thanks for the money. It's not like that. So, they hand hold you the whole time. And either an agency will handhold you or HubSpot will.

Alex: I think mandatory onboarding process sounds quite scary. I'll be honest. It is not really as scary as it's sounds is it? They're not super expensive.

Dave: There's a really good reason for doing it. It is great software, it's easy to use software, but they also recognize that if you're just thrown at this system, and you go off and start using it, there's a good chance you'll fail. And if you fail, then after the first year, because you commit to a 12 month contract initially with them, you're just going to say, no thanks and walk away. And that's not good for them. They're looking for people to sign up to HubSpot, run their business on HubSpot for the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years. That's their business model.

Alex: There is, I guess, because of how interconnected everything is. I guess a relatively steep learning curve, in learning to use all the little bits of it connected, aren't they?

Dave: That's right.

Alex: To get the most out of it is hard I think.

Dave: Yeah. And one of the nice things about their content management system, one of the nice things about the tool used to create webpages is, they don't just give you tools that are really easy to use. They actually guide you as well. So, they'll tell you if this page looks like it doesn't have much content on it, you need to put some more content in it. You haven't, you tell the page, you tell the software, maybe the search terms, the keywords, which we haven't blogged, podcasted about yet. It tells you that, you put them in and it says, well, maybe you're not using enough, that kind of thing.

Alex: Using them enough or using it too much.

Dave: It doesn't look like it's well optimized. It basically guides you, so that you produce a website, a blog, whatever it is. And that is effective. It guides you towards making sure, that the stuff that you're doing on the website is effective. Would you agree with that?

Alex: Yeah, absolutely. And then, I think there're other things as well, when you are kind of creating a blog in HubSpot, it'll kind of prompt you to add CTAs every often, that's a call to action, or a bit where you kind of entice people to do something give you their email address for some content, or sign up to your newsletter or whatever.

Dave: That's right.

Alex: And I think, certainly one of the things I'm really guilty of when I'm typing a blog, is getting very kind of carried away and forgetting to kind of do anything like that. So, it's nice to have something there, that's kind of prompting me. And okay, it's not the most advanced thing in the world, but just having a kind of laundry list of things that should be in your blog post is quite nice really.

Dave: So, in its simplest form, the marketing side of HubSpot is a website management system, in a nutshell. So, if you listen to this because you're thinking, well, I'm still not that sure what HubSpot is, if you've ever used WordPress or Joomla or Craft or Drupal or Umbraco or...

Alex: Keep going.

Dave: There's a lot of them. They are all systems to help you manage your website. If you've ever used any of those systems, then you would probably really enjoy using the HubSpot system. That's not to say, there aren't situations where there's something you need to do, and you can't do it.

Alex: No.

Dave: Because you are buying into, what's known as software as a system or SaaS. So, you don't get a copy of the software, put it on your own server, and do what you like with it. The whole thing is hosted by HubSpot, which is great.

Alex: Well, I was going to say it's nice, isn't it? Because again, for the non-tech savvy, that means you've got nothing to break. Nothing that you can accidentally do wrong.

Dave: There's no software to keep updated. There's no backups to do. It's all taken care of within their SaaS platform, which is fantastic. And the other thing, that works quite well is the main purpose of your website, if you're in business is to attract new customers. Agreed?

Alex: Yeah.

Dave: So, if you're using your website to attract new customers, a lot of the time, you are hoping that people will fill in a form on your website. When they do fill in a form on your website, that goes into a database. And from there, you can then for example, send out emails. You can look at the data about those people in the customer relationship management system, and start building up a picture of what that customer really needs, how you're best going to sell, how you're going to best serve that customer, et cetera.

Alex: Well, this is I think, one of the most interesting things about it, isn't it? Because, I guess traditionally somebody would fill in a form, and you'd log their data in a database or something like that, that, you kind of holding separately, and then you'd all have to kind of log into this database, or share the information from it, and hope that everyone stays up to speed. And then you're not even really gathering that much useful insight, except that they filled in a form. And I think one of the things that's really interesting about HubSpot, is you can see, somebody filled in a form to download an E-book, or a white paper or whatever. And then they went to this page, and then they went to that page, and then they signed up for this. And you can kind of start to build a picture of what people actually want and need from your website, that I don't think many other platforms really give you that kind of insight, really.

Dave: That's true. So, talking about the email side of things, if you've ever used, for example, MailChimp, which I noticed they're advertising on the tele now, they're quite funky adverts. If you've ever used MailChimp, then the emailing side of HubSpot does that.

Alex: Very familiar.

Dave: You can create emails, send them out, see who's clicked them, open them, et cetera, with the caveat that's all changing quite rapidly. So, that apple, for example, and I'm sure Microsoft will be close behind, are now not allowing tracking to take place, or at least they're giving you the option to not be tracked, which makes a lot of sense.

So, bear that in mind, but it still gives you a fantastic tool. Then staying with a marketing platform, a term which maybe people have heard, and they're not sure what it means is marketing automation.

Alex: Buzzword.

Dave: It's a way of a buzzword. Do you want to talk about that? Do you want me to talk about it?

Alex: Marketing automation is when you get robots.

Dave: It's when you automate your marketing. Right, let's move on. That's it, nailed it.

Alex: So, I guess the idea is that to save you time and energy. It's about giving kind of computerized systems as much leeway to do your marketing for you as possible.

Dave: Mostly. Effectively, it allows you to set up a campaign, where you maybe have a landing page or a webpage, that's trying to attract inquiries from people. So, you're getting people on a webpage. If they fill in a form, then your campaign, your marketing automation might for example, wait two days, then send them another pre-prepared email, and then see what they do. And if they respond to it, if they click it, if they do something, send them another email. If they don't then maybe do something else, send them a different email. So, it's a way of automatically nurturing people. And at any point, addition to that, those people can opt out. They can say, stop sending me emails, for example.

Alex: There's automation built into the chatbots and HubSpot as well isn't there? I think you can set them up, so that, they'll kind of when people click the chat and type a question, it can automatically reply or direct queries to specific people, that sort of thing. So yeah, I mean, it's just about say, saving people time and energy really, isn't it?

Dave: Yeah, 100%. And then, I'm not sure if we've covered everything we need to cover on the marketing automation. I'm sorry, the marketing side of things. I mean, that's the thing that we first bought, was the marketing suite back in 2015.

Alex: It's probably the bit we use most as well, isn't it? To be honest.

Dave: It is the bit we use most. Now, we probably should use the CRM more. And we certainly, or Julie's shouting something across. Go on, tell me.

Julie: Social media, You can...

Dave: Julie's coming in. We've never done this before. Well, wait a minute. What's going on?

Julie: I'm stealing Alex's mate. You can schedule all your social media from within HubSpot. So, you press a button, you say you want to do a tweet, and then you can select the blog post that you've written within HubSpot, and it pulls it directly into your tweet. And then, you can do the same for LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook. So, it's really quick, and it's much easier than sort of setting up a tweet, and then going and finding the link and then pasting it in. It just all works.

Dave: Okay. We got some of that, but you didn't get very close to microphone.

Alex: You can tell that we don't do social media posting enough. That's Julie's wheelhouse.

Dave: That makes a lot of sense. Thank you, Julie. Thank you for jumping in. Julie was able to do that because, we do this podcast from the office, from the call face, from the room where, or one of the rooms, one of the office is where there's actual digital marketing happening, which is why Julie was able to just move away from a computer and grab Alex's mic. So, the marketing suite, pretty much happy with that. If in its simplest form, it's a tool you can use instead of WordPress, et cetera, for managing your website content. But it's way clever than that. And it's integrated with the customer relationship management or CRM system. Now, CRM is an acronym that either makes people shudder, or makes people smile. Because if you use a CRM effectively, it really can help massively with your marketing effort, with not only getting more value from your existing customers, which is often where the quickest wins can be made.

If you're trying to increase revenue, your existing customers, people who already like you, people are already using your services, they're often a great opportunity for increasing revenue. I think we are certainly guilty of not doing that enough. I think, we kind of don't pester people. We need to do more of it and avoid those, hey, I didn't realize you guys did that type of conversation, which we do still have from time to time. But a customer relationship management system gives the whole business one view of a customer. Both a business, and the people within that business. And that's a benefit because...

Alex: Well, it's simplicity again, isn't it? Really it's not having to track people through multiple databases. It's being able to log into one platform and say, these are the people that contacted us last week, and this is how many times we've contacted them, and this is how many emails it took for us to finally kind of get them on the phone, and have a conversation. It lets you see all of that stuff at a glance, with very little effort involved. And it's also really useful when you are like me, and forget to contact people and like many of our clients to be fair as well. People get leads all the time that they kind of fail to follow up on, and having kind of one centralized location that you can kind of log into, see who you haven't haven't contacted. It's just a little prompt really isn't it? Says, this person emailed me three days ago, and I haven't got back to them yet. So, I'll do that now.

Dave: That's right. And if you use one of the tools that I think, comes with marketing pro, although it certainly comes with the CRM as well, I'm pretty sure it does. You can create lists, now what that is, is a customer segmentation. So, you can make sure that your customer communications, emails, maybe that you're sending out are going to the right people. So, that you're not sending existing customers an email, that sounds like you haven't got a relationship with them. This happened to me, fairly recently and for that reason, and that reason alone, I decided I didn't want to work with, I can't remember what, I'd got onto a mailing list of some organization, I was kind of thinking, yeah, I want to do business with these people. That's right, it was the video people. We got contacted by a video company, and they looked pretty cool.

Now, we've got Leslie in house doing video, but it is worth a conversation with these guys. They were a team of people, maybe some of the bigger productions that we might have worked with them. So, they reached out using some form of marketing automation. They might use HubSpot. Other ones include things like Salesforce, Paddle, there's loads of them, and we particularly like HubSpot. And they reached out, and I arranged to meet the guys on a zoom chat, and then the following day, or a couple of days later, I got an email from them, which was like, Hey, be lovely to speak to you. We think, we could work with you. We work really well with this. And I was like...

Dave: I was like, wait a minute guys, I've already arranged, and that's the other thing, the guy didn't even rock up for the meeting, which made it even worse. So I mean, they completely screwed up, and he did put his hand up and say, look, I realized I've screwed up here.

Alex: Too late by that time, wasn't it?

Dave: But that kind of email that spoke to me, like I was a stranger, after I'd had an actual conversation with him, and arranged him meeting with them, just made me think that, I'm not going to do business with him.

Alex: Well, I think it's an interesting point, because you said at the beginning that nowadays, or I guess forever, you can do all of this stuff without any kind of automation, without any help, without a platform like HubSpot. But I think nowadays, people are much less kind of forgiving of mistakes like that. There's a need to be much more intelligent with your marketing. You have to kind of hit those notes straight away and not accidentally send people the wrong email, or forget to email them for three days, or any of that stuff.

Dave: That's right.

Alex: It's possible to do all of this stuff without HubSpot for sure. I think it is quite difficult to get it right though.

Dave: I mean some of the free open source tools like WordPress, Joomla or et cetera, they do have plug-ins which claim to be marketing automation. They kind of claim to do everything that HubSpot does. And that's fine. And they might do it somewhat effectively. But I just find we're not a huge agency, and HubSpot isn't cheap and we'll talk about that in a minute, but it absolutely works. It just helps and makes life simpler.

Alex: You never have to worry about stuff, not firing automated emails off, or people not being added to your database, you just trust it to work, don't you?

Dave: You do.

Alex: At the end of the day, if it doesn't, there's always going to be a HubSpot rep, or somebody you can talk to and be like, what's going on. Whereas, I guess with a lot of the kind of extensions you're talking about, you are kind of on your own really.

Dave: For sure. I mean, I would say it's lovely software to use. It's a lovely interface. It's user friendly. Very rarely have we seen it trip up. It's not infallible. It's software for goodness sake, but it nearly always works and nearly always works really well. So, we're not going to go in today, we're not going to go into some of the other aspects, such as the service portal, which lets you, it's a bit like Zendesk, that kind of thing.

Alex: Ticketing.

Dave: And then the operations side of the HubSpot, which is the most recent addition to the HubSpot suite, I think, which allows you to hook up all of your other systems, so that again, you've got one version of the truth. It doesn't necessarily bring all that data into HubSpot. What it does is it connects it. So, the HubSpot CRM might for example, talk to your ERP system. I don't know why you would want to do that, but you might.

Alex: I was just going to say actually, one thing it might be worth covering briefly is the whole HubSpot integrations thing though, because I do think that's quite an interesting thing. That people don't know about. For example, with Google ads, there's a native kind of HubSpot integrations, isn't there? You can just pull all your ads data straight into HubSpot. So, you don't have to measure or track anything by logging into Google ads anymore. You can just do it from inside HubSpot. And I think, that's quite an interesting thing that it's a small thing, but it does save you a lot of time and effort.

Dave: Are you suggesting that Google's reporting tools can sometimes be complex and confusing?

Alex: I'm suggesting that logging into AdWords is a bit of a nightmare sometimes.

Dave: That's right. So, pulling all that data into HubSpot means that, you are single sign on into HubSpot is letting you manage your Google ads campaign.

Alex: Absolutely. And also I guess it goes a step further too, because you can see what Google ads people have clicked, before they converted on one of your forms in HubSpot, which Google ads natively doesn't let you do. So, a lot of the time with Google ads, you're kind of guessing, I sent a hundred people to this page, and I got two signups. So, I'm assuming that two of those signups came from Google AdWords. Whereas, when you integrate it, everything with HubSpot, it tells you literally, specifically, two people clicked on this ad, and then filled in the form. So, takes the guesswork out of it, I guess.

Dave: Good. One other that springs to mind talking about integrations that we use, is we have got the HubSpot chatbot. There's the CRM chatbot on, no it's not actually a bot. It's just a chat tool. We're not using the bot. We could use, but we're not using the chat tool. So, people can just start a live chat with us. And because we also use Slack, what happens is if somebody jumps on that live chat tool, it pops up in Slack, and we can answer them in Slack. We don't have to go anywhere else, because Slack, we have open all the time for communications within the organization. So, it kind of makes perfect sense that we've got that Slack integration. And it means, it just makes life easier. So, there's two examples. Are there any other that spring to mind or [crosstalk 00:23:00].

Alex: There's probably hundreds.

Dave: There are. There's a whole section of HubSpot's website, where it talks about the various integrations, and there are lots of them integrates with...

Alex: Pretty much anything, lets be honest.

Dave: And much there's a bit, I forget the name of it just now.

Julie: Zapier.

Dave: Zapier. Thank you, Julie. There's a Zapier tool, which you can use to hook up to other things as well. So, I think we maybe said enough about what it is.

Julie: I took it wildly off topic there.

Dave: No, it's great. And we really like HubSpot. We use it. We've been using it since 2015. One thing that people often say is, it's not cheap. Well, compared to WordPress, it's not cheap because WordPress is free.

Alex: It's not free.

Dave: It is definitely not free. Having said that, they do have entry level versions of pretty much all of their platforms, like the CRM has a free option, unlimited contacts, free forever, no catches. And if you're thinking about a CRM, do not bypass the HubSpot free CRM, because it'll do, probably exactly what you need your CRM to do.

Alex: Yeah, absolutely. I think, that's the key thing, isn't it? It is expensive on paper. If you look at the prices of buying all of the different bits of it, and adding them all together. And I guess that's another thing that's probably worth talking about. I found it quite confusing to start with, how HubSpot is sold in kind of chunks. It's an ecosystem, but you buy kind of sections of it, and that's quite confusing. Then when you sit and add the price of a monthly sales subscription, and a marketing hub subscription and all that together, it looks eye watering. But a lot of it, like Dave says, you can kind of jump in, and get your feet wet with a free version, or a reduced cost version. And then when you do kind of add them all together, well, it's not as expensive as they say with the time.

Dave: I mean, we've been using it for a long time. We pay I think five or 600 quid a month. For the marketing suite, something like that. Certainly, if you want say, the marketing suite, the sales pro, and what else might you want? Well, yeah, basically...

Alex: Those are the main ones I think of.

Dave: If you get those two, and you want to be able to hold maybe 3, 4, 5000 contacts, something like that, then certainly, you're starting to nudge towards a thousand could a month, in order to have everything that you need. And I know that sounds like a lot of money, but it's not really...

Alex: I'm not sure that it does.

Dave: Well, I mean, we are only a small business. It doesn't feel like a lot of money to us. It only feels like a lot of money, if you don't value your website, you don't really believe in the web as a lead gen business growth tool. If you do, it starts to pale in the insignificance, compared to the productivity gains that you can get from it, in my opinion.

Alex: And then I guess, there's the fact that it's doing what lots of other tools that you're probably already paying for do. I mean, you mentioned MailChimp earlier, email software is not cheap. Something like Hootsuite, that lets you organize all your social media posts, and that kind of thing. They're not cheap. And it's got all of that functionality, kind of baked into it. So I think, if you actually kind of split up what you were getting on, per kind of platform basis, it would be a pretty good bargain really.

Dave: I think so. Yeah. So, you mean the pricings there for all to see on the HubSpot site? I would say that you can usually negotiate somewhat with them. The price you see on the website needn't necessarily be the price that you pay. Like with anything it's always worth saying, I'm interested in this, but we're kind of struggling a little bit with that level of investment, and if they can help, they will, even if it's only on a sort of maybe an introductory offer, that they might provide. Especially, if you are, I'm not a 100% sure. My view is, it would be unusual for you to start using HubSpot, and then decide actually, this is no good, we're not going to use it anymore.

Alex: I'm trying to think if that's ever happened. I'm trying to think of any clients.

Dave: It will have happened. It hasn't happened to us. We've certainly found people who've been paying for it, and it's been gathering dust, and they haven't been using it, and they've needed some help, for example with the CRM, they've needed some help sort of bringing it back to life, and getting value from it. That's not unusual, but that's the same as any software really.

Alex: And I do think again, the kind of massive popularity of HubSpot is a real pro there as well. Because if you do find yourself struggling to use it, you're not sure whether you've got it implemented correctly. There are lots of people out there, who can help you with it. It's not a case of, you're on your own with some kind of weird bespoke software that only one agency can help you with. It's a very kind of universally used product.

Dave: It is, yeah. There's a huge network of agencies who support HubSpot and that's it. I think just to sum up, it's a great tool. If you believe that you can generate business, and grow your business using the website, email, et cetera, we have been using it for a long time, and we love it. And if you really don't want to spend the money, yes, you can achieve pretty much everything HubSpot does, without buying HubSpot. But surely you want your life to be simpler.

Alex: Just give it a go. You're not going to regret it.

Dave: I couldn't agree more. That's my view of it. I mean, we wrestled with it, because it was a few years ago, and money was tight, but we just thought, this is actually going to help us grow our business. And we have grown significantly since we took it on. I'm not saying it was entirely down on HubSpot, because it wasn't, because one thing that HubSpot...

Alex: There goes our HubSpot commission.

Dave: But one thing, even HubSpot will make it absolutely clear, that this is a tool for the marketing team to use. Whether that's a team that you've got in house, or you and your partner agency. It doesn't allow you to press a button, and everything starts working and all, and the contents produced, and the search results start appearing, and you start getting the inquiries. Its a tool. If you don't use it, it's just the same as anything. If you don't use it, if you don't go to the gym, you won't get fit. If you don't use HubSpot, it will not do all the things that HubSpot's capable of doing. But it makes doing all that stuff more enjoyable and more effective.

Alex: I Think that's probably, I would say the biggest problem we encounter with people using HubSpot, isn't it? Is that, they've kind of got it, and they think it's going to instantly transform their marketing overnight. I think, there is work to be done, getting to grips with it, learning to use it properly. And of course, you've still got to go in, and kind of create all the content yourself, and do all that work. But it does make things a lot simpler.

Dave: It's just like part of the human condition, isn't it? That we think that, there might be a simple solution. We often say that, digital marketing is not necessarily hard as in rocket science, but it's certainly hard work. And a tool that can make that hard work more enjoyable, and get more from the time you spend, then that's got to be a good thing.

Alex: I think so.

Dave: Absolutely. Okay, that's good. We'll wrap this one up. Can't think of anything else just now, if you've got any questions you want answering, then go to, and go the contacts tab and ask us a question. If you want to come on the short, and talk about why you think HubSpot's awful, and why you think something else is much better than by all means, drop us a line, we'd love to hear from you, you can come on the show.

Alex: He's lying.

Dave: No, absolutely. People could absolutely come on here, and tell us why they hate HubSpot if they want to, because we're all about trying to help people make decisions, and do their digital market more effective, and different points of view, always interested in it. I think so.

Alex: Yes they are.

Dave: Can't think of anything else to say. So, we'll sign off to snout, it's trial from me.

Alex: And goodbye from me.

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